[cloddopper]

Hi guys - I'm sorry, I had missed the replies to this thread.
 

Womble your formulae is correct but at the same time incorrect because how in our world can you measure density accurately.....
 
Smallholding x Formulae = compost heap 

You don't have to! There's no need to be lab accurate here, nor to actually measure the density. Just take it as 1000 kg/m3, and assume it's constant (since it basically is).
 
What I don't get is why you'd pump all the way up to a headtank, just so you can bring the water back down again. Why not just take the pumped supply right to your point of use and save yourself the hassle?  I'm clearly missing something here, but I can't figure out what it is! 

 The O/P was mentioning ,an increase in pressure .
One IBC on top of another will give you 2 mtrs x the internal diameter of the outlet pipe @ the maximum providing that the tanks are always full. ignoring any resistance etc. hence pumping up to a header tank to get the pressures .
As soon as the height of the water in the tanks reduce so will the pressure of the water out .

[AndynJ]

Still confused - 40ppm of what Andy?, and which guesstimate tables?   
 
I think I'd be worried about running a pump against a dead head most of the time (i.e. a closed stopcock). At best it's inefficient, and at worst would shorten the pump lifespan. Also wouldn't you still need a filter? After all, if there's debris there to clog the pump, it's going to clog it regardless of how it's used.

40ppm = 40 foreign particles per 1 million particles of water, tested by way of a TDS meter, guesstimate table are found on the back of any scrap of paper usually just after breakfast though more usually after several pints of cider.

Pump against deadhead that's what on demand pumps are designed for that's why they use pressure switches
A by pass pump has a straight length of pipe in which the water flows, there is only a diaphragm to catch debris and in 20 years of using these pumps I've never had one block and I use everything from £45 to £2500 daily

As for filter yep sand would do it though you could do a separation tank above the IBC, then if you wanted to be really an*l like me you could then use a sediment filter after the IBC the casing is 10" long & 4" diameter

Good luck

[Womble]

40ppm = 40 foreign particles per 1 million particles of water, tested by way of a TDS meter, guesstimate table are found on the back of any scrap of paper usually just after breakfast though more usually after several pints of cider.

OK, I've got you now. Don't think it would make a huge difference in a simple rainwater system though.

To come back to Cloddopper's point, which is what I was getting at is that the pressure only varies according to the height above it (since we're ignoring frictional flow losses here)......

 The O/P was mentioning ,an increase in pressure .
One IBC on top of another will give you 2 mtrs x the internal diameter of the outlet pipe @ the maximum providing that the tanks are always full.

In my simple head, the diameter of the pipe doesn't come into it - if you dive down 5 metres into a well, your ears will feel +0.5 bar of increased pressure. If you dive down into a loch, your ears will still feel the same +0.5 bar pressure. The diameter is different, but the pressure is the same, i.e. pressure = h x rho x g = depth of liquid, i.e. head x whatever the density happens to be x the gravitational force on planet earth.

Pump against deadhead that's what on demand pumps are designed for that's why they use pressure switches

Got you - I thought we were talking about standard central heating pumps.

As for filter yep sand would do it though you could do a separation tank above the IBC, then if you wanted to be really an*l like me you could then use a sediment filter after the IBC the casing is 10" long & 4" diameter

My problem is that I only have about 8" between the bottom of the gutter and the top of the IBC. That's why I'm thinking of feeding the water from gutter => through filter => to base of the IBC, back flowing into it. I'd really like the filter before the IBC, since I want to get rid of the rubbish before the storage.

I've seen commercial gutter water filters that self clean by flushing with a portion of the rainwater (i.e. you don't get to collect it all, but at least what you get is clean). I wonder if that might be the solution, if I can do a bit more research and figure out how to DIY one?

Good luck

Thanks! - If I ever get round to doing anything with all this, I'll let you know how I get on! 

[cloddopper]

Womble
If I mention a pumping chamber or an equalizing chamber  to give an  " air spring " in the output of a pump would you know what I'm on about ?

[Womble]

Clodopper, no I've not come across that type before (unless you mean the sort of thing you get with a self-priming centrifugal, or sometimes as a pulsation damper on a diaphragm pump?).  Do tell!

BTW, have you ever seen a hydraulic ram pump before?  Unfortunately we've no use for one here, or I'd have a go at building one  .

[AndynJ]

Womble
If I mention a pumping chamber or an equalizing chamber  to give an  " air spring " in the output of a pump would you know what I'm on about ?

Clodhopper at 1/2 past midnight your writing about the internal workings of pumps (your worse than me), I've been racking my brain about a pump I used years ago a ram pump or something to that effect it didn't use elec, it used water flow to activate the pump I think, I'll need to google it if you don't know, I want to pump 400 metres with a head of approx. 10 metres approx. 2 intervals of 400 litres 20mm piping is the cheapest intermediate, running costs are the driving force ANY THOUGHTS

Wow womble you posted that as I was typing

[cloddopper]

Clodopper, no I've not come across that type before (unless you mean the sort of thing you get with a self-priming centrifugal, or sometimes as a pulsation damper on a diaphragm pump?).  Do tell!

BTW, have you ever seen a hydraulic ram pump before?  Unfortunately we've no use for one here, or I'd have a go at building one  .

Firstly
The hydraulic ram pump .. yes I've seen some , they only pump a  few teaspoons of water at a time but over 24/7 it mounts up if you don't drain it off . I had a pneumatic air pump as a tyre inflator .. had to put it in a spark plug hole & run the car engine .. would pump to 90 psi no problems but it did take five or six minutes . 
The old fashioned metal vane'd farm windmill pumps use a long pump rod & flap valve dropping  out  1/2 a pint or so on each pump stroke lift.

 You can use the height of the pump outlet to give you a header tank of water raise it and let gravity fill the reservior .
In Cyprus most small farms had 1 to 2 metre high walled reservoirs to irrigate their tomatoes ,alfalfa etc etc.

Others had single cylinder big fly wheel Lister pumps that needed the air spring /damper cylinder ( made from small inverted gas cylinders) to sort out the pump stroke frequency of one injection & I think  two pump stroke every two turns of the flywheel if they were running spray head oscillating irrigators . They would run continuously for 30 or more hours on a gallon of cheap diesel .

 The pulsation damper type chamber can be use to your advaantage .
round here West Wales 49 ( ? ) Kg tall red propane cylinders are not deposit charges and are not returnable .
 Ten or so inverted and securely fixed in place connected to a running line from a closable pump inlet  to a closable outlet  will give you about seven gallons or so of water in each inverted cylinder if it is pumped to a six meter head level pressure . You can then shut off the incoming ,stop the pump and use the air spring effect to make the retained water become pressurised.
 It will give a fairly good out put pressure for around half of the water held in the reservoir.


Thoughts about pumping 400 mtrs at a 10 mtr head . I'd pump to the height as near to the source of water as possible and into to a small 20 gallon  header tank then gravity run it to the dispersal point . How would that work bearing in mind frost and foul weather .
 What power source will you use to do the pumping ?.

[AndynJ]

Thoughts about pumping 400 mtrs at a 10 mtr head . I'd pump to the height as near to the source of water as possible and into to a small 20 gallon  header tank then gravity run it to the dispersal point . How would that work bearing in mind frost and foul weather .
 What power source will you use to do the pumping ?.

A definite no no
Rainwater tanks 52000 litres are at the bottom of the site every time a loo is flushed pressure switch kicks 240v submersible pump into action
1. I feel it a lot of wear & tear for a 240v sub to be pumping 4-7 litres ago as this only takes between 1&2 seconds, so I thought pump to small header tank at the top of the site then that tank would gravity feed the toilets, so in theory If that system worked I could actually use the 240 submersibles to pump to the header and lose the on demand side altogether.
I just thought maybe a 12v solar pump or a ram pump ? if one would do the job, the 12v are struggling with the head
No rush 

[cloddopper]

ariesrampumps.org.uk ....just had a look at this .. a manufactured bit of gear so all you need is anti kink pipe & some form of mounting & terminating set up .

In the descriptions of how it works is a basic data & outline drawing.

 If you can meet the conditions of a decent fall into the pump they reckon you can lift to  10 times the fall .

 I myself would investigate that idea to the nth degree especially if your thinking of a header tank & if it looks a go'er do a specific save up plan and don't deviate from it.

 I've just seen how easy it is to make your own ram pump , plenty of swing /check valves on ebay .

Though the final cost will be fairly  close to that of one of an air ram pumps.org manufactured one and you know they will work right from the off with no messing about .

For the pumped delivery I'd consider using a modern dual walled rigid plastic pipe like an acorn type domestic pipe rather than a hose pipe as it wil not expand & contract with the pulsed pump stroke as much as a hose pipe will .  This would easily fit all further fittings including a ball cock once the header tank is full .
 You could bury it for frost protection as well .

 Had a wild thought a few min ago .

If you don't have the full fall of water needed to operate the ram pump  use a big domestic solar panel to drive a lorry electric fuel pump and use the pressured electrically delivered water as the supply if the voltage & current available is sufficient .

 Or if no such pump can be had perhaps use a big PV panel a controller & an inverter of 240 volt  to drive a central heating  a vane type pump,  though you'll need a couple of foot of head water to keep the pump out the stream .
It will only pump in day light would that be a be a problem in winter?
 

[Mathewr]

Just stack the two on top of each other, and connect the outlets with a T-piece. Then all you need to do is seal up the big hole in the top of the lower IBC to make it airtight, and connect a vent pipe to the top of the lower one that goes up higher than the top of the upper one, if that makes sense!

Hi there.
I've been meaning to get back to you about your suggestion Womble - but now I'm on the verge of purchasing of a few IBC's.  I think I understand you idea but I'd like to see a drawing to be absolutely sure.  Would it be possible for you to do that??
Thanks
Mathew