[Fleecewife]

Most of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.

What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?

I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.

It's very simple actually - when the grass grows 10 inches tall the roots also grow around 10 inches. When the cow eats 7 inches from the top - 7 inches of the roots will die of and stay in the soil as carbon - fixed from the atmosphere. Your cow will then poo on the grass this fertilizing the soil even more with mass of nutrients and nitrogen.
When you plough a field to grow maize for silage you realise a massive amount of nitrogen and carbon from soil into the atmosphere. You use a lot of fossil fuel, water, artificial fertilizers etc. And cows could do all the job for you and still FIX the carbon and nitrogen instead if realising it.

Plus, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it's not just trees that lock up carbon, other vegetation systems do exactly the same.  Permanent pastureland, floes, taiga, scrubland, peat bogs, veldt, the grasslands of Africa, all these store Carbon to the same extent as trees.  The bandwagon to replace all these with endless trees is a dangerous move.  We need to understand the whole of the science, the ecology, then be selective of where we plant our trees, and where we grow our crops, and where we leave well alone.

[messyhoose]

yes harmony- please stop interpreting my words your own way. I SAID that banning is the "absolute solution" to the issue- i didnt say i believed in a ban!!! No-one can deny a ban is the absolute solution to a lot of things- slavery, child labour, fox hunting, plastics, cigarettes- some happened to be more likely than others, and as i have tried to point out i see the arguement from both sides- vegans and farmers, and id rather see changes in farming (and yes that likely includes a reduction in numbers and making animals individuals in our attitude and mindsets again) as that is more achieveable than the world going vegan, short term.
So my first statement- crikey there is a lot of anti veganism ON HERE is all too clear. Seems people here have preconceived ideas that all vegans are crackpots and "silly" . Thanks but that gets us all no-where in the way this planet and our food production is going. And we ALL have an input into how that progresses.

[macgro7]

Most of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.

What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?

I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.

It's very simple actually - when the grass grows 10 inches tall the roots also grow around 10 inches. When the cow eats 7 inches from the top - 7 inches of the roots will die of and stay in the soil as carbon - fixed from the atmosphere. Your cow will then poo on the grass this fertilizing the soil even more with mass of nutrients and nitrogen.
When you plough a field to grow maize for silage you realise a massive amount of nitrogen and carbon from soil into the atmosphere. You use a lot of fossil fuel, water, artificial fertilizers etc. And cows could do all the job for you and still FIX the carbon and nitrogen instead if realising it.

Plus, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it's not just trees that lock up carbon, other vegetation systems do exactly the same.  Permanent pastureland, floes, taiga, scrubland, peat bogs, veldt, the grasslands of Africa, all these store Carbon to the same extent as trees.  The bandwagon to replace all these with endless trees is a dangerous move.  We need to understand the whole of the science, the ecology, then be selective of where we plant our trees, and where we grow our crops, and where we leave well alone.

In fact grassland stores carbon much faster than trees - grass grows much more dry mass per year per acre than forest. We just see 100 year old forest and see lots of carbon stored in branches etc. Its not as obvious with grass - but as I said the life of grass happens much faster than oak.

[SallyintNorth]

  [member=174828]messyhoose[/member]

We are starting from opposing ends, and certainly have areas of disagreement, but it would seem to me we both feel the optimum place to aim for at the moment is the middle ground.

I too would love there to be no factory farming of livestock.  I would love all animals to live as natural a life as possible, and those we domesticate to live that life free of physical or mental distress of any kind.

I too believe that the western world needs to eat less meat, but better quality - farmed more with sensitivity to the livestock, to the environment, to the farmer and to all others involved in the process - than is the case at present. 

I passionately believe that whatever we eat must be produced and delivered sustainably, which, with transport being far and away the biggest polluter and emitter of greenhouse gasses, may for some mean that in fact meat and dairy should comprise a significant part of the diet.

[SallyintNorth]

Seems people here have preconceived ideas that all vegans are crackpots and "silly" . Thanks but that gets us all no-where in the way this planet and our food production is going. And we ALL have an input into how that progresses.

I was reaching for ideas on how we might make the truth about farming - in the UK at least - more accessible to those who are turning vegan in this country in the - in my view, mistaken - belief that this will help the environment. 

So yes, I do think many people who have become vegans recently are ill-informed.  That doesn't make them silly or crackpots - I think I made it clear that I believe most to be motivated by laudable ideals - but it does mean we have to work out how to reach them with a more balanced view.

What I would call intelligent debate - which for the most part we are having on this thread, for which I thank you all  - does not these days seem to cut much sway.  The media is driven by emotive headlines and it is not clear to me how to get information through to those who are not seeking it.

[messyhoose]

absolutely sally in the north. it may have taken me 40 odd years but i evenutally came to realise resaoned debate not mud slinging was the best way to get through life!!
of course we all have a uk perspective as that is what we are used to- but the science is not so specific- it is taking a global viewpoint, so yes pastoral farming here is not bad for environment, but feedlots in argentina prob are.
It is funny the desire to get people turning vegan to see the real picture is exactly what vegans want meat eaters (those whose only contact with the animal is a plastic bag in tescos) to do too....
Definitely the middle ground is meat eaters need to be aware what meat production involves and it should be a transparent business or else is subject to being asked what does it have to hide. On the other hand people going vegan for environmental (or even health) reasons need to realise that the answer to climate change is not as simple as stopping eating meat, and that their health can be just as poor if poor food choices are made.
I have witnessed first hand the ugly side of bad farming practices, i wish that i hadnt, but ignorance is not an acceptable solution to todays troubles (be that intensive farms/ climate change/ immigration and wars the  list can go on).
And indeed food production choices have to sensibly be based on location- i was flatly refused a shepherding job in Iceland (the country!) cos unless i ate lamb or fish i would have cost my hosts a fortune (have you seen how much veggies cost up there?!!) .
I used to work on a city farm. Maybe they are the place to start public food education- we had kids who had never seen a live animal, had no idea where milk or eggs came from- that was only 10 years ago. As i say ignorance is not acceptable.

[SallyintNorth]

I personally couldn't care less about veganism, any more than I care about Sharia law, or people that believe the world is flat. (Yes some still do!)
The world is full of people with different opinions. I may believe they are wrong, but I still respect their right to their opinion.

Nah, the world can't be flat.  If it were, the cats would have pushed everything off it by now

[Fleecewife]

     very good sally 

[SallyintNorth]

   very good sally 

I wish I could claim to be the originator, but it was a meme on FB  a while back

[harmony]

yes harmony- please stop interpreting my words your own way. I SAID that banning is the "absolute solution" to the issue- i didnt say i believed in a ban!!! No-one can deny a ban is the absolute solution to a lot of things- slavery, child labour, fox hunting, plastics, cigarettes- some happened to be more likely than others, and as i have tried to point out i see the arguement from both sides- vegans and farmers, and id rather see changes in farming (and yes that likely includes a reduction in numbers and making animals individuals in our attitude and mindsets again) as that is more achieveable than the world going vegan, short term.
So my first statement- crikey there is a lot of anti veganism ON HERE is all too clear. Seems people here have preconceived ideas that all vegans are crackpots and "silly" . Thanks but that gets us all no-where in the way this planet and our food production is going. And we ALL have an input into how that progresses.

It wasn't obvious you were making a statement messyhoose. So, if you feel I am misreading then be clear in what you say.  Nor do I think vegans are crackpots and silly. Did anyone say that?

[messyhoose]

harmony, whether you misinterpret me or not is your issue not mine to deal with. page 3 had people belittling "silly" vegans and their ideas. The majority of posts (not all- i acknowledge there are many level headed folk here too) have been disparaging and prejudice. The comment that if vegans are ignored their ideas will die a natural death was not your comment i know, but was offensive to those of us that hold our ethical values from experience and information- not  through seeking to get attention or more air time, as has also been commented.

[harmony]

I don't think I am misinterpreting you messyhoose nor do I feel it an issue I need to deal with. I acknowledged I had misread one of your comments. The comments you refer to on page 3 didn't say call vegans silly. You have your views and have made choices because of them, personally I respect that even though they are not my views or choices.

[Herbs,Hens and Spaniels]

Did anyone here go to the Oxford REAL Farming Conference?
Loads of really exciting talks there about no till arable, pasture fed, silvopasture, agroforestry, soya use in animal feeds, organic market gardening e.t.c. They also had a session with George Monbiot, Richard Young, Patrick Holden and others where they discussed pasture fed meat, sustainable agriculture, veganism and factory grown meat/ food. Really interesting stuff!

https://orfc.org.uk

[SallyintNorth]

Did anyone here go to the Oxford REAL Farming Conference?
Loads of really exciting talks there about no till arable, pasture fed, silvopasture, agroforestry, soya use in animal feeds, organic market gardening e.t.c. They also had a session with George Monbiot, Richard Young, Patrick Holden and others where they discussed pasture fed meat, sustainable agriculture, veganism and factory grown meat/ food. Really interesting stuff!

https://orfc.org.uk

No, but I wish I could have! Will they publish proceedings, do you know?

[Herbs,Hens and Spaniels]

I'm so sorry you couldn't make it! Yes! Here is a link to videos of some of the sessions. https://m.youtube.com/user/realfarmlife/videos?view_as=subscriber

Also they are in the process of making audio recordings of all of the sessions available online too, I'm just not sure when these are coming out.