[goosepimple]

Hi, we had a north ronaldsay sheep die today - perfect health yesterday, frothing this morning at 7am then dead by 2.30pm today.  NRs are copper sensitive and I'm not sure if any of the attached photos contain higher than average amounts of this.  We recently took out a small rhodedendron plant and we know the obvious yew, laurel etc.  Our other sheep have always grazed in this area and we have had no problems.  We have only had the NRs for 2 weeks.  They are a bit more goat like than the other sheep (soay and castlemilk moorits) and are perhaps attracted to different vegetation than them.  We can't rest until we find out the problem.  Any help would be appreciated. Many thanks.  I should say the most munched area was the first 2 photos (small stalky plant and am showing close up of its leaves in my hand). Am going to bed now, its been a long day I wish would end.  Many thanks.

[lachlanandmarcus]

cant comment on the other pics but the first pic just looks like docks and clover, no prob with those. Im really sorry you have lost her :-(((

[jaykay]

The right hand side of the third picture seems to have a Euphorbia growing - those orange shoots. I'm no botanist, so could easily be wrong, but I have a Euphorbia griffithi in my garden that comes up looking a bit like this.

If so, they're poisonous, the common name for euphorbias is 'spurge' coming from the French 'espurge', to purge.
There are many species and they vary how poisonous they are but some can kill humans.

[YorkshireLass]

Info on copper poisoning - http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/210700.htm

Where were the sheep from originally? Just noting the paragraph saying stress such as transport can "release" copper stored in the liver in one massive overdose.

Sorry for your loss 

[goosepimple]

Thanks Yorkshire, I'd already seen that and of course it is a possibility, although I must say they are very friendly and seemed to settle in immediately, they are quite confident. The remaining girl seems very healthy.

Thanks Jaykay, I know euphorbia as a plant and think I would recall that being there.  The most munched top photos are almost watercress looking but oval leaves but then it could have been the geese who ate those.  There are other grassy type things that get munched by our other sheep and its never been a problem. 
Someone on the TAS website mentioned recently that Bagot goats eat everything and you have to be careful - I think the NRs are very similar to the Bagots actually, it really struck us very quickly how goat like they are. We've re-fenced their access points to this area and none of our livestock can get in (apart from the geese who are sitting on their eggs there).  Best to keep livestock in a plantless field I think.

[woollyval]

Hi

Well.....

I am going to stick my neck on the block and say its not dock and there is no clover there that I can see.

The bottom one could be a sedge but could also be a lot of other 'garden plants' such as monbretia or lilies.... I am going to get my other half to have a good look on his return this evening.

The other thing that crossed my mind was water hemlock.....not one of the pics but you may easilyconfuse it with lots of other things, especially if you have wet ditches.... Also re the rhododendron possibility.....have you any wild rhodys lurking anywhere?

If you can post really detailed pics of plants, their setting etc it helps...will do anything I can to help. 

[goosepimple]

Thanks Woolyval, will do that today - we are beside a river and we've hunted high and low for rhode - we did have one quite small and of course we dug it out roots and all and put it on the bonfire.  Will post what I can, thanks so much for your help.

[woollyval]

Ok....oracle says it IS dock...round leaved dock! The plant next to it is mint we think. Thew others are of common buttercup and a willowherb of some sort, not sure which one. The other pic could be as I said a sedge...not poisonous or a lily, perhaps day lily.

Ohhhhh and says that due to lots of rain docks are sweeter this year and higher in oxalic acid content making them more likely to be gobbled up but more toxic....!

[goosepimple]

Might have been - gosh that could be missed by anyone.  However, we think we found another culprit.  On an extensive search, determined to get whatever it was we found, yes, another rhodedendron - it was in amongst some rocks and dead grass and a large dead branch of broom.  It had about 6 spindly stems, was completely pathetic looking and struggling to grow about 6 inches tall, but had some fresh munch marks on the top leaves.  Gutted we didn't find it before, thought we had looked everywhere.  Its practically nothing to look at as a plant but was probably enough to do the job.  My poor healthy beautiful girl.  It's taught us a very hard lesson.
Thank you woolyval, I do suspect that the possible docks were eaten by our geese who are always in that area. 

[YorkshireLass]

Oh noooo.

But at least you've found the problem now I guess. Small consolation.

[Fleecewife]

I'm so sorry you lost your little ewe goosepimple.  We lost 2 ancient Hebs who should have known better to laurel many years ago - evil stuff, now hacked to bits and burnt to the ground.

Do you really need to get rid of the survivor?  Now you know where the problem plants lurk, can you not keep all the sheep well away?  It would be such a shame to no longer keep Ronnies because of this.  Someone mentioned that they thought sheep knew to avoid poisonous plants - I think the explanation of that in this case may be that because lambs learn from their mothers, and at Darrens there were no rhododendrons, your new ewes didn't know to avoid them, and didn't have time for trial and error to work - just error.  Very sad.

[goosepimple]

Thanks fleecewife, the RBST officer is coming for a visit tomorrow (Wed) anyway so I'll chat about that with her.  We would love to keep her and in fact would love a small flock of these sheep, they're very interactive.  We may get her a nice wee whether to chum around with until we send her off to chum around with an intact boyfriend  which will of course result in twin ewe lambs next spring.
The offending area is now unaccessable and all remotely offensive looking plants burnt at the stake.

[Fleecewife]

Sounds good 

Say hello to Ruth from me tomorrow 

[goosepimple]

Ruth says  back and hopes you are keeping well.  She's convinced me to keep Miss Ronaldsay, particularly as she would like to use her at next years wool festival at the Border Union Show   

[Fleecewife]

Oh good - I'm glad you're keeping her