[fleurky]

On Sunday a terrier tore into two lambs, both still alive but not much hope for one, and maybe a  little for the other.  The one I have (plucked it out of the field yesterday evening) is still bleeding through its wool. Its a huge lamb and has lacerations all over. 

I can't afford to take it to a vet -  I'm sure it'll be a big job. He has torn skin on back and neck (still dripping blood from neck), and actual holes in his hind legs above the hocks the size of 10p's - you can see right in to the bone. there is probably more than that but quite henestly there is not much point in me checking him over and causing further discomfort when I don't really know how to go about 'fixing' any of it.

He's huge so hard to handle. Bright as could be expected, clear eyes, eating a little grass and creep. Not bleating, quite hang dog as expected really.

The people have been very honest and come forward to take responsibility.  The farmer (owner) is looking to bill them for 2 lambs on the assumption they will both die.  I really want to at least try and treat it or if not have it 's misery ended rather than do nothing and just allow it to die slowly. 

I'm in a tricky middle ground situation, I live next door to the farmer & help out with lambing and what not but also know the dog owners quite well. How should I approach this without appearing too soft - the vets bill will most likely come to more than the value of the lamb so the farmer would not be inclined to down this route.  The dogs female owner I think would do anything possible but paying a vet bill plus giving farmer compensation anyway may be too big an ask.   

Can anyone give me advice on how to clean & dress such wounds if at all?? Best way to restrain him whilst I work?
I suspect  being put out of his misery would be the better option - but putting him throught the stress of getting to a vet isnt exactly kind either.  How do you even carry a lamb with such injuries without it suffering agony?!

Poor, poor thing.  Any help or advice greatly appreciated =(

[dixie]

The farmer (owner) should shoot it,  if it's too severely injured and suffering that's the kindest thing to do. The dog should be put down, or said farmer shoot that too! the dog owner read the riot act and pay compensation for lost lambs.  May sound harsh to some but it really pees me off that people just cannot control their dogs and innocent animals have to suffer.

[VSS]

The owner of the dog should pay any vet's bill resulting from the behaviour of the dog and if the lambs die subsequently, should also pay compensation for the loss of the lamb. We have had this situation crop up several times recently and on two of those occasions we have known the owners of the dog quite well. They have been mortified by the behaviour of the dog and stumped up the money without a murmer.

Remember that you can only shoot the dog if it is actually worrying your sheep at that moment in time and if the owner is unwilling or unable to call the dog off the sheep and iti is on your private land. If you do shoot a dog, you do have to inform the police that you have done so. Be 100% sure that all your guns are legal.

[dontworkclimb]

dogs worrying sheep is a 'little' irresponsible on part of dog owners. We have dogs and sheep but I would not trust my bitch even though she is now 12 years old. I don't hold out much hope for lambs but you could try the antibiotic jab/purple spray on wounds; however they are probably in pain and will succumb to the shock(sheep don't tent to do pain!). Really sorry to hear though

[SallyintNorth]

Clean the wounds at least once a day with salty warm water - it'll do far more good than the blue spray at this stage.  If the wounds become infected, use blue spray on the infected wounds and give Pen & Strep by injection.
Give vitamins either by drench or by jab for the shock.  You may need to do this for several days.
Keep it warm, dry, clean and somewhere it knows it's safe.  Fresh water available at all times.
If it isn't eating / drinking, get Pfizer Scour Formula and bottle or tube that into it, or at least give it glucose-in-water.  (You'll have to ask others about dilution rates; I always use PSF.)

Good luck 

[Moleskins]

The farmer (owner) should shoot it,  if it's too severely injured and suffering that's the kindest thing to do. The dog should be put down, or said farmer shoot that too! the dog owner read the riot act and pay compensation for lost lambs.  May sound harsh to some but it really pees me off that people just cannot control their dogs and innocent animals have to suffer.

You'll be in trouble with the 'Dog' side of the forum if they read this !

For my part I agree with you. I've just dealt with a neighbours sheep that was attacked, not nice at all.
Police said dogs worrying sheep should be shot.

[lachlanandmarcus]

[/quote]
You'll be in trouble with the 'Dog' side of the forum if they read this !


[/quote]

Not necessarily as long as it was unavoidable and the only way to stop him 'in the act', I have two dogs incl one who is not at all livestock proof, we have spent 000s on 6-7 foot fencing to give local farmers confidence he aint going to get out, but if it happened and he attacked farm animals, then I would expect them to have to shoot him as I know he would be very hard to catch. I of course would have to live with the guilt but it would be mine and not the farmers.

However after the event I wouldnt agree with the dog being PTS as it wouldnt be stopping harm at that point, provided what caused him to be loose could be completely addressed and full compensation and vets bills paid. If the cause couldnt be addressed, then he would have to be rehomed away from livestock.

[dixie]

I've been on both sides of a dog problem. Our German shepherd whom we had had from a puppy, grew up with our horses, sheep chickens and ducks, never a problem. One day she got onto our field aged 10 and attacked our sheep, fortunately they were ok, a few bite wounds but lived! It was a one off that we didn't understand, thinking maybe a fox had got into the field and she went after it we gave her the benefit of the doubt. A week later she jumped up and bit a guy doing some work here, not a nip a proper bite, it was agonising as we loved her so much, but something had changed in her and we did the responsible thing and had her put down. I spoke to animal behaviourists, the vet and family, we decided to keep her locked up would be cruel after living here free range, rehoming would simply pass on the problem, we made the right decision.
A couple of years later our next door neighbours got an ex breeding bitch, German shepherd, it's nuts! It's gone for all of us, we secured our fencing to keep it out of our property, but we share a lane of which they seem to forget is our right of way to get to our house, one day it pinned my then 10 year old son to the fence and bit him, they witnessed it, we called the police, they refused to have to dog pts or rehomed, so a neighbourhood agreement was drawn up to say they would keep the dogs secure 24/7,
The dogs continued to escape until they finally took responsibility for them. Lately he's got relaxed with it and now walks them off the lead ( he cannot control them on the lead, his own admission) to and from his house along our lane, so yesterday we called the police again, we should have the right to use use our right of way without fear of his dogs, but they just don't get it!
If the dog worries my sheep I can shoot it, bites my son and nothing's sone, it's ridiculous. People forget dogs are animals not humans, and should be treated as such, a responsible dog owner is someone who keeps their dogs under control at all times, no exceptions!
Having a dog pts after the event is always an option, if the dogs done it once it will do it again, I could not have that on my conscience.
If It had been someone else's sheep our dog attacked I would have had her pts sleep that day.

[doganjo]

The farmer (owner) should shoot it,  if it's too severely injured and suffering that's the kindest thing to do. The dog should be put down, or said farmer shoot that too! the dog owner read the riot act and pay compensation for lost lambs.  May sound harsh to some but it really pees me off that people just cannot control their dogs and innocent animals have to suffer.

You'll be in trouble with the 'Dog' side of the forum if they read this !

For my part I agree with you. I've just dealt with a neighbours sheep that was attacked, not nice at all.
Police said dogs worrying sheep should be shot.

If you mean me and Sylvia etc I think we agree - to an extent .  A farmer has every right to shoot a dog he sees worrying his sheep, or other livestock for that matter.  That is why my dogs are taken to a deer fenced area to run free, otherwise they are on lead.  But he doesn't have that right if he doesn't actually catch it there and then.  His recourse at that point is to notify the authorities, who SHOULD then advise the owners to keep control of it.  And I am sure we all agree that the dog owner should foot the bill for ALL the farmers losses, whether it is in an attempt to heal the animal or to have it humanely destroyed.

[PDO_Lamb]

Sorry to here of this.

I would expect a contrite dog owner to be willing to pay any vets bills incurred looking after the wefare of an animal injured beyond the scope of home care. If you are on good terms with the owner try to talk to them about the possibility of it happening again. The dog is their responsibility. Probably you should report the matter to the police so the dog has a record.

On the subject of re-homing dogs. I don't think the re-homing agencies can place dogs with a record of aggression because they would be liable for supplying a dangerous dog.

[Old Shep]

Not a good situation to be in.  If they are really suffering would'nt it be best for the vet to pts?  Dog owners should pay for this and for the value of the lambs.  But at the ed of the day the lambs belong to the farmer so he should make the decision as to whether to take them to the vets or not, but maybe if you encouraged the dog owners to offer to pay for them to go to the vets the farmer may be more willing rather than waiting to see if they live or die?

[/quote]
You'll be in trouble with the 'Dog' side of the forum if they read this !
[/quote]

Moleskins - some of the "dog side" also have sheep  .  If the only way to stop a dog killing or maiming a sheep or lamb is to shoot at it there and then, then that's what has to be done.

[fleurky]

Thanks all.  yes Dixie - I was thinking shooting it was the right answer too.  Farmer came and we had a good look at him. He's being quite calm at the moment (worryingly!) so i've managed to cut away the fleece to expose some really quite horrible wounds at his throat and hind legs in particular. He can get up/lie down, walk, bleat and eat though, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt (for now).

 I've bathed them with salt water (thank you Sally) and I have been given a purple spray alternative by the farmer.  The concern is infection but on the plus side there are no flies about. We are going to give him a couple of days then if he seems to be going on OK, and moving about better, we hope to bring his mother and sibling into the walled garden next door with some of the not good doers, and hope some motherly love will help.

I spoke to the owner of the dog.  She is gutted and serious pee'd off with her OH who lost the dog whilst out walking then went home in the certain knowledge he'd come back eventually (he goes off after rabbits regularly). He is seriously in the dog house and she's asked me to call him today to lay down the law about being more responsible and sort payment for all damages.

So thanks again Sally - after taking in all you have said, I'm going to contact the vet and see if he will give me the pen & strep and vits jabs  (errr not me personally ! I mean allow me to inject lamb rather than taking him on horrid journey to vet) and then the dog owners can pay for it.

They can also pay the market price for the 2 lambs regardless of their recovery.

The owner is actually in the police force, which makes her even more annoyed with her husband about the incident as there will be repurcussions at work.  It wasn't her fault, and apparently the dog doesn't run off when she takes it out - alpha female no doubt - but I guess because her OH allows it to go it's gotten into that mind set that its perfectly OK to bugger off. He said it goes after rabbits, but I'd assume it'll kill anything that moves. We live on a big shooting estate, and if the gamekeeper saw it he wouldn't think twice about shooting it.  I shall make my friend aware of this and urge him to take classes. A dog without recall isn't worth having in my humble opinion.

BTW Interesting the number of posts about German Shepherds.  I walk my  neighbours 10yr old GS with my 3 collie's, she was dreadful with sheep initially (see further down) but I have (quite literally) knocked it out of her (who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks? Hope that doesn't offend anyone, sometimes brute force and fury gets the job done).  Now I can walk her through fields off lead with them, in the full knowledge that she is under my control - she must walk behind me at all times. It would be easier to simply have her on a lead - but she has to lean self conrol and I have to learn to trust her, it works both ways - niether of us will learn if she is restrained by a lead.  It has taken over a year for us to to come to an agreement over how to behave around sheep, however I'd never trust her on her own with them, or indeed trust her with anyone else.  Saying that, last week 2 lambs squeezed out under the fence into her garden.  She lay at the back door watching them, but did nothing- I witnessed this from my office window a hundred metres away and was very proud of her self restraint.   It helps that the dog is owned by the farmers mother, so I can train her in fields of sheep with the agreement of the farmer.

Going off topic a bit - I'm fascinated by her instinctive behaviour is to get a sheep down.  I watch my collies going around - they want the sheep to see them.  I watch the GS and she goes towards them from the back - where they can't see her approach then will run alongside and bring them down by the neck, holding them down - not shaking or frenzied like a terrier, just holding.  Anyone know what GS were actually used for?  Was it actually to bring down and hold a sheep rather than herd them?   I simply can't image them herding like a collie.

Anyhoo I'll do what I can for the poor lamb. Thanks again, fingers crossed, but I still dont know if a  bullet wouldn't be the kinder option Shep. Such a hard call. I guess the difference is that he has a big flock (650 ewes and over 1000 lambs), so its about yield, he would see a visit to the vet as excessive for the sake of one lamb.  He wouldn't think it appropriate for the dog owner to be landed with a big vet bill on top of claiming compensation for the loss of the lambs.  Saying that I don't think he wouldn't let it suffer unnecessarily, I hope he would shoot it if there was absolutely no hope. I'm not keen to take it to the vet the be pts as that would be an incredibly stressful  20 minute car journey especially as its wounds are in areas which make lifting and restaining it impossible to do without further distress.  Poor thing. The second one is in better shape.

I dont know how to do the clever quote thing but:

" People forget dogs are animals not humans, and should be treated as such, a responsible dog owner is someone who keeps their dogs under control at all times, no exceptions! " 

Well said Dixie. .

.

 

[doganjo]

On the subject of re-homing dogs. I don't think the re-homing agencies can place dogs with a record of aggression because they would be liable for supplying a dangerous dog.

There are specific charities which actually retrain, rehome or foster such dogs.  My friend is a behaviourist for SHAK, just such a  charity.

[robert waddell]

yes there is a line of thought on battering them into good behaviour  and not just dogs my own experience was with cows  but all animals sense by your tone of voice when they are in the wrong    but as with everything else there is a line that you do not cross or it becomes abusive

[doganjo]

I can't understand the need to hit any animal let alone a dog.  Gregg made such an impression on me that I was happy to let him have one of my pups 2 years ago. Ranger is now helping Gregg stabilise difficult dogs that come into the SHAK kennels.