[HelenVF]

I have a 11h Section A who has had laminitis in the past, although not too bad.  She is usually turned out at 8.30 with some fast fibre and hay.  She then has some hay at lunch and brought in at 3.  A haynet is waiting for her in the stable.  She then gets some more hay at bedtime.
 
However, with the awful weather we have been having, she has been spending more time in than out.  She is usually barefoot but my farrier and I discussed about getting some shoes on as she can be a bit footy and the hard ground was making her worse.  So....my routine has changed and I want to make sure it is ok:
 
8.30 ish Fast fibre with a bit of hay
9.30ish walk down the road for 20 mins
lunchtime haynet
3.30 ish walk down the road for 20 mins with a haynet waiting for her
9.30 ish more hay.
 
Is the amount of hay ok?  Is the amount of time spent out of the stable ok?
 
She is stabled with 2 pygmy goats (actually in the stable), so she isn't on her own.  Is there anything I can give her to keep her occupied.
 
I have to say, she doesn't get stressed when she's in, especially when it's bad weather as she really doesn't like the rain.  This time of year, she is usually waiting for me to bring her in.  This morning, we were out when it was sleeting and she was trying to shelter behind me!
 
Just want some reassurance I am doing the right thing, or if I should be doing something different?
 
I was going to ask this on a horse board but in the past, I have been made to feel stupid, or that I shouldn't have her and as you are a friendly lot...
 
Massive thanks!
 
Helen

[sabrina]

Hi Helen, my lot are only out for a few hours in this weather too so do not worry too much about that. My ground is very wet and I worry about colic. they have their feed in the morning and hay in the field but still look to come in around 1pm. Pitstop who had laminitis a few years ago has dropped soles and when the ground is hard he goes out with boots on. These help to give him a bit of a normal life. As long as you are keeping her gut working with hay throughout the time she is in all should be fine. I have a small radio on if they are in during the day this keeps them happy. At least she has company with the goats so I expect she is happy enough.

[lachlanandmarcus]

I would go for boots rather than shoes if she is ok most of the time, as once shoes are on the footiness is masked but is still there, and if she is prone to lami the first sign you may have of a problem is a full blown attack, you wont get the early warning signals you get barefoot.
I think your routine is a great one, plenty of fibre, low sugar, some exercise and small and regular feeds.
The only thing I would be tempted to add (given that the FF is unlikely to be being fed in large enough quantities to meet it) is a vit and min supplement (ideally a lami focused one) as these may be lacking in the diet and the lami makes it even more important to give - but you may already be doing this.
The other things you can do if you want to feed more but without increasing weight or lami risk would be to soak the haynets if you arent already, or to combine part hay and part oat straw (so long as pony not colic/choke prone) - you can feed it whole or chop it with a garden shredder if worried about doing that. (Dont feed more than 50:50 hay straw tho as the oat straw is lowish  in protein and minerals)/. The good thing about the oat straw is it does given a longer more satisfying chew for the same weight/calories than unsoaked hay so can be useful in winter for lami prone ponies to lessen the 'no food' periods when they have scoffed everything and you cant yet give them more as they would balloon!
hope this helps a bit - but even if you carry on doing exactly what you are I reckon you are pretty near to the mark for a good management of this pony so 

[HelenVF]

Thanks, both of you!!

What sort of vit and mineral supplement would you recommend?  Not giving her anything extra.   Her haynet is dunked, but not soaked. Where would I get oat straw from?

We have held off with shoes but my farrier felt it was time. I am assuming she will be able go back to barefoot after winter. Just want to add that I don't pay my farrier so he isn't pushing anything and he is very interested in laminitis so I do trust him.

One other thing I have seen have been these boredom busters - have you used anything like that?

Thank you!  It really does put my mind at rest.

Helen

[lachlanandmarcus]

Apologies for length of following post!!
Not sure where you are HelenVF as if you are somewhere that has specific soil types/deficiencies, you can sometimes get a vit/min supp from a local supplier that is designed for the local soil types. For eg up here in NE Scotland, Norvite do a general purpose supp that is designed for the high iron, low in some other stuff acidic soils for this region. But if not, any of the general purpose supps would be fine, maybe with the addition of some magnesium oxide which is available online and which is cheap and is good for hooves/lami. You can get super duper lami supplements but they are generally expensive in comparison, and a lot of them make a lot of noise about biotin, which is good for hooves but which horses normally have adequate amounts of themselves.
Watch out in winter for frosty grass, it is very high in sugar, we cant avoid it here in Cairngorms but if you can it is better to wait until frost is burned off before turnout.
Dunking the hay will make it less dusty and slightly reduce sugars but ideally it would be soaked for a few hours min (prob no more than 12), which can reduce the sugars by up to 30%. It isnt always poss - we use oat straw partly cos we cant soak hay in winter in the Cairngorms as everything is frozen solid :-)).Oat straw is a little higher in energy than long soaked hay, but a lot lower than unsoaked hay.
Oat straw isnt too easy to find until you find a supplier, but you can also buy it ready chopped in bags eg from Halleys online. Best thing is to learn what a field of oats looks like :-D I had to learn this to find any and then approach the farmer direct - well thats how it works up here. Even if in big bales, if its an old boy growing it (it often is up here), he will probably have a small baler in the shed and can rebale it for you. Down south it may be more a case of ringing a hay/straw merchant or your local agricultural auctioneers, who often know who has oat straw, or looking for ads in local press. The reason it is worth persevering is that not only does it give the pony more chew per calorie :-) it can also work out a lot cheaper - we pay £2 a bale (we collect it tho they help load it)  - if we had indoor storage for big round bales it would be even cheaper still - whereas small bales of hay are £3.50 or more here from a merchant and then to get the sugars down ideally you have the hassle of soaking.
NB when looking out for fields of oats, dont look until most of the main wheat and barley harvest is finished - oats are later maturing so are generally cut last. They have a thinner grassier look to the stems and smaller grains - they look like a failed wheat crop!
Boredom busters have had several reactions from my horses. 17hh hunter Marcus ignores them. 14.2 lami prone haflinger Liesel gets everything out of them in 2 minutes and then either tries to destroy them or covers them in plop (the snackaball types). The hanging types Im not so keen on just find them a nuisance and molasses likits would be a nono, but you can halve a swede and use an apple corer to put it on the likit holder. However my Haffie doesnt have fruit/veg at all because of lami/weight concerns so she's lucky if she gets a handful of molasses free chaff as a treat :-)))
Finally (I promise) try and make sure hay is meadow type, late cut to be lower in energy, often pale green in colour cos of the clover etc rather than uniform ryegrass hay as that is very high energy and can trigger lami (it did with my pony).

[HelenVF]

Massive thanks for all that.  You are a star!!

Helen

[goosepimple]

Just reading all of this out of interest being a new pony keeper and trying to absorb as much as poss, you are very helpful lachlanandmarcus.  HelenVF if you don't mind my gatecrashing this thread I'd like to ask the following that either of you may know:
 
Was out today poo picking with my daughter, we haven't done it since our 2 mini shetlands arrived (will be 2 weeks this coming Tuesday) and I couldn't believe how much poo there was - was going to keep it all but ended up throwing 75% away.  I am giving them 2 pony carrots each in the morning (to distract them from the molassed goat feed they smell - we feed the pygmy goats shut in so ponies can't get it) and they have hay as it's out for our sheep (paddock is very icy).  The ponies are very busy at eating what grass there is I notice, not standing about looking bored ever as far as I can see, always busy.  They don't get anything else to eat but I have a lump of rock salt out for them.  I am getting paranoid about lamanitis - everyone seems to have a problem with it.  We don't have a stable as yet (next year's project) but they do fit in the goats house easily if I have to shut them in. 
 
Is there anything I should be doing / not doing?  Should I shut them in now for a period each day?
 
What would be an average amount of poos a day (sorry).  Wish I'd counted, it took us over and hour and a half getting them all up. 
 
How often do you poo pick - do it every day for 10 mins or so best as a routine?
 
Also they don't seem to like me touching their legs so I haven't hoof picked yet - should I be more assertive?  Do you give them something to eat while you do that?
 
Sorry, complete novice but want to get it right.  Thank you in advance.

[lachlanandmarcus]

Its unlikely they will need any other food. However ideally the salt lick would also have minerals in (if you get the yellow rockies double 2x 10kg blocks from an agricultural place, it is miles cheaper per kg than getting the 'horsey' sized one which is much smaller and ££ per KG. Good for the sheep too. Dont get a red rockies tho - too much copper for both sheep and horses (only useful for cattle).
This time of year the only reason to shut them in would be if the grass is really frosty but looks like it will burn off - wait til it does before turnout. Otherwise this is the safest time of the year along with high summer when the grass has stopped growing and is yellowing. Spring and autumn are the risk periods more, and even when the new grass is only 1cm long I would start to restrict access - ideally with a grazing muzzle as horses learn to concentrate grazing into the restricted time (they can eat 80% of daily amount in 2 hours once they know 2 hours is all they get each day- clever chops!)
Poo counting is a useful way of seeing how much the pony is getting food wise esp re grass as it helps to warn you the spring grass has started growing. On a weight maintaining diet my horses generally do about 10 poos every 24 hours, of which 4 are in the field (as they are only out in daylight and this is short up here at this time of year so they are only out 6-8 hours), and 6 in the stable.
If you possibly can, poo picking daily is much easier, it takes 10 minutes and means the field is far less likely to develop sour patches where the horses wont graze, and is better for controlling worms.
Yes you should persevere with the feet - they must must must be able to have their feet lifted and handled calmly and safely. I would use a haynet and start by touching and handling the legs, only working down to the fetlock and then the hoof once they are used to the upper leg being toouched (as they are usually better about that. Stand to the side. When you get to the stage pony is happy with hands being rubbed all over legs and hooves, gently hold the fetlock and ask the pony to 'Lift'. At the same time squeeze slightly. If you need to, use your body weight (this may be tricky given how low down a mini is!) to slightly push pony shoulder away from you (ie making them take their weight on the other side and making it easier for them to pick up the near hoof without thinking they will fall over!). NB I am assuming the ponies are haltered and tied up for this - training them to do that would probably come first if not.
good luck!

[goosepimple]

Thank you thank you - am away out to have a 'session' with them now the ice has gone and we are not tripple salcho-ing around any more.

[HelenVF]

Just want to add that I get about 3 poos in the paddock, and then then about 4 or 5 in the stable, but it is difficult to count as it gets spread around, so I can sort of tell if it's the right amount iyswim?

Is there anything I should be doing / not doing?  Should I shut them in now for a period each day?

I keep mine in but I do know people who keep shetlands out all year round, with no problems. 
 

How often do you poo pick - do it every day for 10 mins or so best as a routine?

I poo pick every day, just so I can keep an eye on it lol.  I get a bit obsessive about poo! lol
 

Also they don't seem to like me touching their legs so I haven't hoof picked yet - should I be more assertive?  Do you give them something to eat while you do that?

I was lucky with Dusty as she had seen it all before.  I do always do it when she is either eating from a hay net, or a bucket.  She now, actually, lifts her feet up for me to do it so she's well trained lol.  I do it twice a day - when I turn her out, and when I bring her in and if she's stabled, I do it in the morning and evening.  There is the odd occasion, I won't do it for some reason or another but don't think it will hurt her.  I jsut find it's a good time to check her feet. 

Find yourself a good farrier - mine has been a godsend.  I can text him any questions at all, and he will answer.  But then, he asks me daft questions about dogs lol. 

Dusty is my first pony so I was a novice as well but it's surprising how much you get into a routine.  It's when that routine changes, I start to panic lol, but always ask on here, as they have all been so lovely, and helpful.

Oh, I don't turn her out on frosty grass, but she has had laminitis.  She did have to wear a grazing muzzle for a short time after that and since then, we have been sooo careful about it and we have been laminitis free for nearly 2 years - touch wood!  I think having it so early on after getting her, has made me even more neurotic/careful about it.

It's certainly a very steep learnin curve, but a fun one at that!

Helen

[goosepimple]

Now I typed a reply and the screen just went black, so here is a revised version:
 
Thank you Helen, it's good that you were a novice fairly recently, novices always have the most questions of course, I find books sometimes miss things out you need to know because they are written by experienced people who forget all the questions you have at the beginning.
 
I think routine is the key, once they know if I head lead them that they are just going in our out of a stall and there will be a carrot there they may not mind.  I am having trouble getting head rope on them though - they run away from me when they see it, so now I'm slinging it over my shoulder when they get their morning carrot so they can see its not doing any harm.   Am hoping by next weekend to have another go - I might need to lure them into a small space though to get it on, then treat.  Am going to adapt the pen area of the goats house (they don't need it) to make 2 stalls with bucket and hay net, so it looks like their space and they feel comfortable with that.
 
Neighbour is the local farrier who also does livery.  He is going to come over before New Year to check them out so I'll get a few handling tips from him.  How much is a farrier usually and how long do they take to do a foot check/trim?  These ponies are not shoed.  Don't think they have been that well handled recently although one of them did produce a foal for a farm park in Dundee earlier this year so pressumably was then.  They are friendly enough and don't mind a bit of a brush and nose rub though.
 
Many thanks.

[sabrina]

My farrier charges £20 for a trim. the stallions only need doing about 4 times a year as they wear their feet down on the hill. Pitstop who has had laminitis needs done every 6 weeks to keep his feet the right shape and stop him walking on his heel. If for some reason blacksmith cannot get here I can do the boys myself but never Pitstop as he needs special triming that I have not been taught to do.A little trick that may help you, visit the ponies in the field when you have the time but do not catch them. Just say hello, rub a nose or neck and walk away. That way they learn that just because you are in the field does not mean you are catching them. I have found in the past that the ponies learn to follow me and look forward to coming in.

[HelenVF]

I'm lucky in that I don't have to pay my farrier   I swap gundog training lessons for it lol.  She is usually unshod and he would charge £20 and that's every 6-8 weeks, depending on what she's looking like, and if he's going to be here.  He usually comes every Sunday so keeps an eye on her anyway.  She was shod last week and he wouldn't let me pay him, but he did say he would normally charge £45.  He has put slightly different ones on though as she does have flatter feet, due to the laminitis.  For foot trimming, he takes about 15 mins and I think it was about half an hour for shoeing her.

Dusty can be a bit of a bugger for catching, but a bucket of food always does the trick lol.

Helen

[goosepimple]

Hmm, thanks both, think I will have to adapt the goat pen area and get them in there first.  I have only tried to 'catch' them a couple of times, I give visits about 4 times a day for a nose rub and a bit of a pretend brushing session so they get used to me, they do run up to me which is promising (usually beaten by the sheep who are always first to see what's in my hand).