[Laurieston]

Due to various things - which would take too long to explain now - I have a Queen cell about to hatch above a Queen Excluder.  Yes I know that is not quite conventional, nor possibly sensible, but then I'm not very good at this (yet?).

My question is whether a virgin Queen can get through a Queen excluder.  I have read that they get bigger when they are fed up by the worker bees, when they have completed their mating flights.  Therefore I think maybe she can get through the excluder anyway.

Anyone know?

Thanks.

(ps. I am happy (even if red faced) to try to explain how it happened if anyone is interested.)

[ZacB]

Not a clue but she will stay a virgin if she can't 
Laurieston, maybe your question should go along the lines of.......
 
HELP I'VE GOT A QUEEN CELL WHERE I SHOULDN'T.....NOW WHAT 
 
I'm guessing you want to keep HRH, if your hive is queenless at present, remove the excluder and leave off until    she has mated and returned then sort out.
If you are looking to increase then split your hive,    you'll have two hives in a month 
A danger you do have is if you have an existing un-clipped queen in your hive, assuming this is a swarm cell and not a supersedure, you run the risk of losing your bee's 
Recommend you have a chat with a local mentor or association. If you are really stuck PM me 

[P6te]

Hi Laurieston,

The answer is probably yes but for all intent I would assume not ....

I'd be interested to hear the full story and maybe then can offer the most appropriate advice!

Pete

[Laurieston]

Background:  I built a Snelgrove board to manage a split, which I did 2 weeks ago.  Hopefully the bees think that they have swarmed.

I used the Snelgrove board to produce a split:  Queen and a bit of brood and stores below board, rest of brood and stores above.  As there was lots of brood and stores I ended up adding a super (separated by QE) above the upper colony.  In the process of putting different frames here and there I ended up with one frame with stores and a little brood above the QE, but told myself it was no problem as these eggs would have hatched and been cleaned long before I harvested the frame.  Obviously I didn't say it loud enough as the bees didn't hear.

Ten days later when I inspected I noted that there was a Queen Cell forming in this brood above the QE.  I had assumed that the new queen cells would be produced below the QE in the brood box.  So I was thinking that maybe I now have three colonies, separated by the Snelgrove board and the QE.  Hence my question as to whether the Queen above the QE will be able to get through; either to exit the hive or to destroy the other queen cells.  I wondered if I could keep the QE in place, to keep the third queen alive above it, until I was sure the second had successfully completed her mating flight and was breeding.

Today was great.  We opened the whole hive.  Above the QE we found several queen cells.  One with cap open, several with holes in their sides (empty) which I felt had been broken into.  We think we found the new Queen, although not as big as an actively laying queen due to feeding and being full of sperm.  Below we found the same story, but didn't see the new Queen, only an opened queen cell and several broken ones, and at one end of the brood box more undamaged queen cells (maybe she hadn't reached there yet to keep killing her competitors?).  Below the Snelgrove board there is lots going on, including lots of drone brood.  I sadly decided to sacrafice this frame, almost entirely full of capped drone cells, to manage varroa.  We also found eggs proving queen-right-ness.  I need to add a super to this colony over the next couple of days.

So, my mistake has resulted in having in effect three colonies from one split.  Of course the top colony is way too small to be viable alone, but as a spare Queen might be worthwhile.  Actually how many bees do you need to start a colony?

I was amazed how many queen cells they had built.  Roughly 8 in each brood box and to see how they had been upcapped or opened by the side (is there another explanation other than they were killed?

Maybe I should copy this post into the "Learning from our mistakes" thread! (I seem to make a lot of them).  Oh well.  Little harm done.

[P6te]

Hi Laurieston,

A few points to answer / comment on ....

1. I would not recommend putting any supers above the top brood chamber (the one above the snelgrove board).  That colony need to be weakended to the point that they would not consider swarming.  Any supers should be on the bottom colony below the snelgrove board. The top colony will not get chilled brood due to the heat rising from beneath.

2. The number of queen cells produced clearly demonstrated their determination to swarm (as opposed to raising supercedure cells).  That number is not uncommon, I've seen many more on occasion.

3. The queen cells that were broken into from the side is a clear indication that the bees destroyed them, they never open the end, always the side when destroying them.

4.  To create a neucleus hive all you need is 3 frames.  I have 3 and 5 frame neucleus hives and generally start on 3 frames and move to 5 when they start to build up.  The key thing is to ensure the frames of brood are not going to get chilled and they have adequate stores.  One frame of sealed brood is ideal and a side with some eggs (I initially omitted the obvious ....) and ensure you have one and ideally 2 well formed sealed queen cells on one of the combs  The outer side of the frames is best not to have too much brood in it.  You can always shake some young bees into the hive to ensure they have enough bees if in any doubt.  When the neucleus has been created (from a strong hive) always block the entrance for a few days before releasing the bees otherwise the flying bees will all return the the parent hive.  After 3 days they will return to the neuc when released.

Pete

[Laurieston]

Thanks ZacB and Pete, once again your replies are helpful and prompt. 

Yes, I have noticed that the bottom colony (below the Snelgrove board) has developed the fastest, not surprising I suppose as that was the only one that had a laying Queen.  Since last writing I have totally separated the bottom colony (the one with the Queen) and supered it.  I have also taken out the QE from between the two unplanned splits and replaced it with the Snelgrove board acting as a new floor with entrance for the upper colony.  This will also allow me to unite them if necessary as they still share a mesh covered hole and therefore similar scent.

This afternoon I had a quick look in the two splits, hoping to find eggs showing that the new Queen had got going.  Nothing doing though.  Split was made on 5 May and I saw opened Queen cells on 18th May.  Question is how long before I should expect to see eggs and signs of Queenrightness?  How long does it take for a Queen to develop, hatch, fly and return to lay? 24 days gone so far.

On another note I have just received another nuc, on 8 frames with Queen cells inside.  I was shocked to read what is charged in Carlisle for these http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=34122.0 I paid 80€.  May open an export business.!!

Yet another note.  Why are you not interested in Topbar Hives?

[Tiva Diva]

Yes, a virgin queen can get through a queen excluder, though it does depend a bit on the type of excluder and the individual queen. But usually yes they can