[twizzel]

I get hay straw etc for free being on OH's farm ours are slightly different as we rear orphans and have no ewes but we still make a healthy profit (if you don't count my time... but living on the farm it hardly takes 10 mins to change the  milk feeder twice a day). We send ours direct to slaughter and any surplus meat is delivered to family and friends once picked up from the butcher.
 

At this time of year fat commercial lamb market is saturated, so I would also think about lambing early so you can finish lambs slightly earlier in the year?

[SteveHants]

Indeed, there are no right or wrong answers and everyone has to use a system that suits them best and what they are happy with.   Interestingly enough, here's the comment from the market report at Cirencester market 5th September from the sheep auctioneer - "Meat is the key to selling lambs at present and is not achievable with grass alone.  The difference between the meated lambs and leaner sorts it will pay to feed them."

a) He's  talking out of his behind, there are ram breeders all over the place prodcuing for grass finishers.


b) You have to weigh up if the £/kilo increase you will be getting is worth the cost of putting the feed into the sheep.


I find it generally isn't - this is what I mean about thinking about your margin and not looking for the highest end price. I think the last lot of my terminal x lambs made not far off the same pen that topped the market, and yet I didn't spend a penny on cake.

[SteveHants]

At this time of year fat commercial lamb market is saturated, so I would also think about lambing early so you can finish lambs slightly earlier in the year?

And, again - margin. You will need to feed/house ewes if you are lambing Dec/Jan to hit higher prices in spring, which aint always as high as the early lambers hope. It (like everything in business) is a gamble, they are talking a punt on the spring £/kg high will pay for all that extra feed/sheds etc and add a bit more into their margins. I have been told by an early lamber (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that it cost him about £60 (last year, so you'd hope it would be less in a 'normal' year) to produce a spring lamb for killing - so, to achieve the same margin as me, he'd have to be getting about £120-130 per lamb.

[ZaktheLad]

I have found lambing earlier costs a lot more both in time and money.  The extra bedding and feed for early lambing (as you will more likely than not have to lamb indoors for it to be successful due to the weather etc) really needs a lot of consideration and good planning if considering to go down this route.  Lambing at a time of year when you can either lamb outdoors or in and then have ewes/lambs out on some good new grass is the best way to maximise profits.  Also, the time you spend mucking out and feeding/watering your sheep in housed ewes/lambs with early lambing can not be underestimated. 

Choosing a breed that matures quickly is also a key factor - something like a Hampshire Down can reach market weight at circa 3 months on grass if conditions are right.  At this rate, early lambing is not particularly necessary as April born lambs will be ready to go at the same time as the Jan/Feb born ones.

There are many factors that dictate lamb prices, not just a saturation of the market.  Religious festivals, Ramadan, school holidays etc, etc all play a part.  The market changes on a weekly basis and from market to market.  If you only have a few lambs best to sell privately than through a market as on top of everything else you will have commission to pay and also the cost of travelling to your local market, of which there are not that many about nowadays and so can be a bit of a trek.

[Hillview Farm]

Indeed, there are no right or wrong answers and everyone has to use a system that suits them best and what they are happy with.   Interestingly enough, here's the comment from the market report at Cirencester market 5th September from the sheep auctioneer - "Meat is the key to selling lambs at present and is not achievable with grass alone.  The difference between the meated lambs and leaner sorts it will pay to feed them."

325 sheep is a lot different from a flock of 10.  I only have 11 breeding ewes and they have the best that I can afford of everything.  I would never consider feeding them crap hay and I also feed them hard feed up to lambing and also afterwards for a couple of months.  I have sold my ewe and ram lambs for £100 each this year - all have gone to breeding or pet homes, so a different sort of market.  I am happy with this price and as long as I break even or make a small profit that's all I require.  Keeping 11 breeding ewes is a hobby not a business as it would be if I had 320-350 sheep, I do not have a commercial attitude to the whole thing and care more about the sheep and looking after them than the profit I might make.

Hillview Farm - you have done very well in your first year to break even and sounds as if you are doing everything you can to not only to ensure you don't make a loss, but that you also feed your sheep in a manner in which you are happy doing - 

Thank you ZaktheLad, That's the nicest thing you could have said to me. I'm in the exact same boat as you and when I have 300 sheep I may change my ways but for now i'm happy 

[gulli]

firstly i'm not saying that my feed bill is too high i'm saying its the highest thing I pay for. I dont pay rent, get hay for free so the most I pay is for feed and I buy the odd bag here and there. I'm sorry I didn't explain very well.  I'm not sayinf having more sheep is cheaper either. And lastly I dont need better ewes as I bought the best my budget could get me and then some. Ok so they aren't pedigree but I went to the best commerial sheep farmer in my area and got his best. There is nothing wrong with my sheep. I understand this is oppinions but I was just looking for idea's for example selling them dead, not someone seeming to be having ago at me. There is no right or wrong answers

Sorry, not knocking you. Just my opinion.
you can always have better sheep, being pedigree makes no difference to how good the sheep is.
My best ewe cost me 70 quid 

As I said, if you wish to improve you margin then either improve your flock with genetics or change the way you market your lambs

[gulli]

Indeed, there are no right or wrong answers and everyone has to use a system that suits them best and what they are happy with.   Interestingly enough, here's the comment from the market report at Cirencester market 5th September from the sheep auctioneer - "Meat is the key to selling lambs at present and is not achievable with grass alone.  The difference between the meated lambs and leaner sorts it will pay to feed them."

a) He's  talking out of his behind, there are ram breeders all over the place prodcuing for grass finishers.


b) You have to weigh up if the £/kilo increase you will be getting is worth the cost of putting the feed into the sheep.


I find it generally isn't - this is what I mean about thinking about your margin and not looking for the highest end price. I think the last lot of my terminal x lambs made not far off the same pen that topped the market, and yet I didn't spend a penny on cake.

auctioneers get paid on how much the pen sells for not on the margin you make and to a point the heavier fed lambs will make more money because thats how the live ring works.
don't agree with it at all but thats the way it is.

[Big Light]

For those of you who are looking for ewes that require very little input and produce big decent lambs when crossed with a terminal sires then plenty of females available at

http://www.hebrideansheep.org.uk/Downloads/Sale%20catalogs%202013/Stirling%20Sale%20Catalogue%202013.pdf

 

[SteveHants]

Indeed, there are no right or wrong answers and everyone has to use a system that suits them best and what they are happy with.   Interestingly enough, here's the comment from the market report at Cirencester market 5th September from the sheep auctioneer - "Meat is the key to selling lambs at present and is not achievable with grass alone.  The difference between the meated lambs and leaner sorts it will pay to feed them."

a) He's  talking out of his behind, there are ram breeders all over the place prodcuing for grass finishers.


b) You have to weigh up if the £/kilo increase you will be getting is worth the cost of putting the feed into the sheep.


I find it generally isn't - this is what I mean about thinking about your margin and not looking for the highest end price. I think the last lot of my terminal x lambs made not far off the same pen that topped the market, and yet I didn't spend a penny on cake.

auctioneers get paid on how much the pen sells for not on the margin you make and to a point the heavier fed lambs will make more money because thats how the live ring works.
don't agree with it at all but thats the way it is.

Exactly - it makes more money for the mart, but not for me.

[Foobar]

The feed conversion ratio diminishes as the lambs get older, i.e. the amount of weight they will put on in relation to the amount of hard feed that they eat.  It's 2:1 at 2 months, 3:1 at 3 months, 4:1 at 4 etc etc.  So it would be more effective to creep feed lambs rather than feed to finish them (if you need to feed them at all).  I can't understand how it would ever pay to "finish" lambs on hard feed . 

If you aren't targeting your lambs for a particular time of year it would be wise to ensure your lambing period is such that the best grass growth is when the lambs are starting to eat grass in quantity.

In answer to your original question.... ... I think I feed about 20kg hard feed per ewe at (March) lambing, although I also lamb my ewe lambs who need more food for longer, and I am lambing at 200% for my ewes and about 150% for my ewe lambs.  But I think I can reduce that amount of food if I better manage my grass.  (and hay on top of that all winter as the weather dictates)

[Bramblecot]

Thanks for all the replies to this.   Hardly any of my friends know anything about sheep and that is why this forum is so helpful to a novice like me to hear lots of opinions. 

Each year I learn a bit more about how to bring on my lambs and balance all their needs - numbers/grass/hay/hard feed.  Then lambing/butchery /prices/skins and marketing .  So much to learn and so little time left ( I should have started this 30 years ago)

[ShaunP]

I have been following this one with interest. I think SteveH talks a lot of sense. If you are in it for the money it isnt about top price it is about top margin and that makes a whole heap of difference. Personally I am in it for the quality of food that I can put on the table. I have started to go done a rote of grass fed only and although some of my lambs are not the biggest, everyone who has one wants more as they are so impressed with the quality of the meat. I currently have Charalais ewes that I cross with Wilts Horn Ram. Last year I bought some Wilts Horn Lambs and at the moment dont have access to the usually Ram I use.


I am thinking to keep the Wilts Horn pure and not cross. What would you do?

[SallyintNorth]

I've been reading this thread with interest. 

I think most of you thinking about trying the grass-only route are down south, so as long as you have good ground and the right type of sheep and the right attitude, I can't see why that wouldn't work for you.

I did just want to record, for the sake of others reading this thread now or in the future, that grass only won't always work depending on ground, climate and breeding.  So if you're a way up North (like me) and/or have rough ground (like me) and/or have a type of sheep that is unlikely to fatten in one season on grass, then you'll need to either run them on through winter and/or cake them.

And the other ingredient in SteveHants' model, don't forget, is ruthless culling for animals that don't suit the system.  For sheepkeepers who are likely to find it difficult to send young ewes away for no other reason than that she has needed treatment for her feet, or that she struggled to produce enough milk for her twin lambs, then Steve's system is probably not the one for you.

[Hillview Farm]

Gulli, I'm sorry I jumped at you I just get very defensive about my sheep.

I think there have been some very good points made on this Subject. I think Steve has a very good business head and I actually look up to Steve! But we must always remember different systems for different people and places.

[ZaktheLad]

Another factor that you need to consider when thinking of a grass only system with ewes/lambs is how many lambs you are expecting a ewe to rear on that grass only system.  It is slightly unfair to expect a ewe to feed herself and triplet lambs on grass only and provide a high quality milk to support those three lambs (if your intention is to keep all the lambs on the ewe and not foster off or bottle feed/sell on as orphans).

I live in the South of the country and still cake my ewes/lambs when weather conditions dictate.  The grass has very little/no nutritional value in it from late October onwards, regardless of what part of the country you live in and if the grass regrowth in Spring 2014 is a slow/nonexistent as it was this year, that's another factor to think about when considering a grass only system. 

Another minor point worth considering is that if you do feed some hard feed to your flockthis will ensure that they (for the best part) become easy to manage/less wary of humans than those not fed/bucket trained.  Personally, I like to be able to catch my sheep easily and don't want them frightened to death to come near me.  This is the same with both ram and ewes and although I don't pet my ram, he does come to the bucket, which means I can look at him at close range to check for any irregularities etc.  For someone keeping just a few sheep it makes life so much easier if your sheep will come to you rather than having to chase them around a field or not be able to get within 100metres of them.  Someone farming 300 odd sheep probably wouldn't give two hoots if their sheep were scared to death of them as most would have a dog or other means to just round them all up en-mass.   You don't need to feed much cake at all just to keep a small number of sheep biddable but it is worth it if you don't want to spend forever trying to capture a particular sheep or want to keep a close check on them.