[Luke_H]

I don't post all that often, what with only a few dogs a cat, some rabbits and chickens I don't have anything too exciting to contribute-but I do love reading about the pigs and sheep (especially Kune Kunes & Jacobs-one day I'll have a house with more space than a back garden I swear!) but today I had a chat with my vet which made me wonder...and It was a chat I think best suited to discussing with more function than form thoughts of people, and those with working dogs as well as pets.
I have three dogs, a small ageing terrier cross who nowdays catches more flies than rats and rabbits (her once job), and two rough collies (lassie dogs) one is still very lassie looking despite being from a show kennel which is unusual as generally the breed has been ruined and are TINY with HUGE coats and look more like big shelties, totally impractical as a working dog but a few breeders still preserve the older looking dogs. But even they don't resemble the original RC. My other RC however is from two smooth collie parents, a throwback to when the two breeds were seen as varieties of one-as they are in America and on the continent, and thus bred together. He looks like the 1950s collies, looooong nose, tall and light framed, a long silky coat but more on a par with a BC than show RC-just like the old lassie dogs! Due to KC hyprocricy, despite being a rough collie and despite if he'd been born anywhere else in the world he would have been registered as one, here he had to be registered as a smooth. The breed club won't chase the issue up through fear of the breed being merged again and losing their individual CC status it seems. ANYWAY, whilst at the vets with this ancient looking boy our vet asked "so when are you going to breed him and get some real lassies in the world again, i haven't seen collies like him in donkeys" and i stated how he's registered as a smooth so couldn't be bred with roughs.
   We then had an indepth discussion about breeding, his illumination how breeds such as Jack Russells and Patterdales aren't KC recognised let alone registered and how they are bred to popularity AND with pedigrees as such (well as in the sense of family trees) really made me think
Not that I'm going to breed any dogs before anyone worries I'm a back yard breeder looking for justification here, I haven't got the time nor space for puppies-nor the inclination, as lovely as they are! But it made me wonder, what IS the importance of the actual KC registration nowdays? Surely if a pedigree of the dogs lines can be provided, why is KC registration actually important?
They seem to have allowed for the ruination of so many functional breeds now, yes I'm aware it's the breeders doing this not the KC but they still register the pups and still permit judges who place these specimens as the "correct" ideal of the breed. So much so that it makes you wonder, does the KC registration actually have all that much of a place/bearing in the breeding and buying of dogs?
I can't quite decide on this one-thought it would make na interesting discussion anyway!

[sabrina]

This should be interesting !

[doganjo]

In theory at least, reasons for KC registration are to keep recognised breeds true to type. 
Generally speaking apart from designer breeds, most pedigree KC registered dogs fetch a higher price since their ancestries are proven (or should be  )
Patterdales, JRs, Lucas, 'doodles plus any other crossbreeds do NOT generally breed true to type - that is if you breed two of them together the whole litter do not ALL resemble the parents, and repeat matings of the same two dogs may also vary considerably..  A cocker to a cocker does breed a cocker, for example.
It is also a method of keeping details of health tests done - for instance if you go into https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx
 and type in a dogs name you can find out exactly which tests have been done.  Try mine - Fosscott Alaine over Aberdon - it shows his hip score, when it was passed and what age he was when he was x-rayed.  You can also click on links to check on parents and progeny to get a bigger picture.

Some cynics would also say registration is a method of raising money for the Kennel Club, I couldn't possibly comment    - but they DO provide a good service and that is improving all the time.

[Rosemary]

In theory at least, reasons for KC registration are to keep recognised breeds true to type. 

Except it hasn't really, has it? If that was the case, then GSDs wouldn't have these ridiculous sloping backs that cause health problems in the breed. They didn't used to look like that so either the standard has changed or the KC is not keeping breeds true to type or sloping backs would be penalised heavily in the show ring.

[Luke_H]

I think Rosemary sums it up quite well, I get the whole concept of the KC as a registration but my point was more...what's the importance of it to the actual quality of the dogs? For example as my vet was asking, ym old fashioned rough from 2 smooth parents; he looks like the RC from pre 1980 with the super long necks and long noses, he has that same bomb proof temperament, he's workable, keen, and is CEA clear. But due to beuracracy couldn't have his children registered as roughs. However dogs that the KC are happy to recognise as Rough Collies, i would say over 50 percent are the modern small fluffy type. And in a breed which is considerted so genetically impoverished that some GOOD breeders are importing USA dogs which are the pre 1980's type of english collie as well as having the CEA clear gene and new blood, surely it would seem appropriate to register these throwback pups and allow them to bring in lines which have all but disappeared from the breed due to the split between rough and smooth.
As with GSD's, the working type are beautiful-but you'd never see one placed in a ring. A lot of the terriers look entirely encapable of doing a good days work, many even lack the correct temperament IMO for the breed they are supposed to be. Some of the gundogs too are far too cumbersome. It just makes me wonder, maybe there is a place for sensible lines of dogs that don't necesarily receive the KC's stamp...which lets face it, is stamped when you pay so much too the piper! It does make me wonder, designer crosses, working terriers, working BC's, and pet bred dogs all are advertised and seem to have their place in puppy sales....does the KC really have that much of a place anymore? I also wonder if it has slightly too much power and dictatorship over the dog world when, after all, it is only a registration body--which is something any breeder could do themselves in the sense of record keeping, health testing and line archives.

[doganjo]

In theory at least, reasons for KC registration are to keep recognised breeds true to type. 

Except it hasn't really, has it? If that was the case, then GSDs wouldn't have these ridiculous sloping backs that cause health problems in the breed. They didn't used to look like that so either the standard has changed or the KC is not keeping breeds true to type or sloping backs would be penalised heavily in the show ring.

The main problem with GSDs is that when a litter is registered no photos are required - so you are right that the registration system can no longer do it's job.  That is the fault of unscrupulous breeders and crap judging over a number of years, not the KC, and not the registration system.  Which is why I advocate a legal requirement for dog breeding.   

However, Judges now must agree with and sign the following statement,  before being awarded a judging appointment -  'judges must penalise any features or exaggerations which they consider would be detrimental to the  soundness, health, and well being of the dog.  So the KC has it in hand to improve matters.

[Luke_H]

Sorry but being an avid cruft's attendee I can safely say, pastoral day being one of the two I always go on, that there is little if any improvement to the quality of the GSD judged and placed in the ring. To not be too specific so as not to offend anyone directly, there was one dog which got placed in breed judging that genuinely hobbled when it moved, and another which almost cantered like a hyena due to the HUGE slope. Both got placed, quite highly in their breed group too.

[in the hills]

I suppose that in a lot of breeds show "type" has gradually moved away from working "type".

Matter of opinion, I guess, as to whether that matters or not ... unless .... health is the compromise.

My lab pup is very well bred as a working lab but not going to win any prizes in the show ring. There aren't many, probably any, show quality labs competing in field trials and vice versa. Two types.

They say that Flat coats are one of the only dual purpose gundogs but at the end of the day there aren't many of them winning against the good old working lab in A.V. field trials.

My daughter asked me why the KC allowed dogs to be bred with features that caused health issues and let these dogs win prizes. Difficult to give an answer to.  So what does the breed standard for GSD's state about sloping back. Surely if the judge is judging against the standard dogs with a 'fault' if it is considered so shouldn't still be winning.

Still it's useful being able to check that health tests are in place via the KC ... as Doganjo says I was able to confirm the tests on my working labs parents.

[doganjo]

I suppose that in a lot of breeds show "type" has gradually moved away from working "type".

Matter of opinion, I guess, as to whether that matters or not ... unless .... health is the compromise.
My lab pup is very well bred as a working lab but not going to win any prizes in the show ring. There aren't many, probably any, show quality labs competing in field trials and vice versa. Two types.

They say that Flat coats are one of the only dual purpose gundogs but at the end of the day there aren't many of them winning against the good old working lab in A.V. field trials.

My daughter asked me why the KC allowed dogs to be bred with features that caused health issues and let these dogs win prizes. Difficult to give an answer to.  So what does the breed standard for GSD's state about sloping back. Surely if the judge is judging against the standard dogs with a 'fault' if it is considered so shouldn't still be winning.

Still it's useful being able to check that health tests are in place via the KC ... as Doganjo says I was able to confirm the tests on my working labs parents.

Yes, I agree, but fortunately many of the HPR breeds and some other gundogs are dual purpose
I think it matters a great deal that many breeds have been split, but it is the working fraternity that have done it.  'I won't breed my dog/bitch to something with no brains' - without checking first!
Sorry, but you are wrong about there not being any dual purpose labs - for a start check Carole Coode's website Warringah;  I have a number of friends who both work and show their Labradors, but I would  agree the majority are certainly split into two distinct types
Again, not true about flatcoats being the only dual purpose gundog. .  Most HPRS are dual purpose.  In Brittanys we have two out of the only three living Gundog Dual Champions - the other is a Vizsla - no GSPs, no, Munsterlanders, no flatcoats, no spaniels - just THREE HPRs 

[robate55]

As an interesting fact when I was querying the registration of my accidental litter I was verbally informed that as registration was not a legal document it was not necessary to tell the truth!!!
Rose

[doganjo]

As an interesting fact when I was querying the registration of my accidental litter I was verbally informed that as registration was not a legal document it was not necessary to tell the truth!!!
Rose

WHAT?  By a member of Kennel Club Staff?  That would be an instant dismissal in any company I've ever run!  Suggesting that a customer/client should tell lies is just not on.

I'm horrified that they should tell you that!  However, a registration document is not a legal contract - that much is true, but it is a legal instrument. The registration certificate is a record which may be called upon by the Kennel Club to be produced in the event of a dispute or for any other verification purposes in the future.

[Mammyshaz]

In theory at least, reasons for KC registration are to keep recognised breeds true to type. 

Except it hasn't really, has it? If that was the case, then GSDs wouldn't have these ridiculous sloping backs that cause health problems in the breed. They didn't used to look like that so either the standard has changed or the KC is not keeping breeds true to type or sloping backs would be penalised heavily in the show ring.

As a person that loves the working GSD I would just like to say that many of those shown are trained to stand in this preferred sloped fashion but are well defined and able working. I don't know the exact reasoning behind the stance as I concentrate more on working ability and don't show but have been shown how to stand my own ' normal ' shaped GSD into a stance for showing.

The GSD  boy ( elmo )who got to the finals is a well defined working lad who could do a good days work

[doganjo]

In theory at least, reasons for KC registration are to keep recognised breeds true to type. 

Except it hasn't really, has it? If that was the case, then GSDs wouldn't have these ridiculous sloping backs that cause health problems in the breed. They didn't used to look like that so either the standard has changed or the KC is not keeping breeds true to type or sloping backs would be penalised heavily in the show ring.

As a person that loves the working GSD I would just like to say that many of those shown are trained to stand in this preferred sloped fashion but are well defined and able working. I don't know the exact reasoning behind the stance as I concentrate more on working ability and don't show but have been shown how to stand my own ' normal ' shaped GSD into a stance for showing.

The GSD  boy ( elmo )who got to the finals is a well defined working lad who could do a good days work

It is supposed to show great strength in the hind quarters if they are stretched out like that.  Ready to lunge forward at great speed and with strength. A normal GSD if set up with it's hind paws beneath it's hips will have an almost level back - but an abnormal one will have a banana shaped back.
There was an issue in 2010 on comments made by Clare Balding - http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2010/Mar2010/News260310/gsd.htm Lagos is certainly not the worst I have seen so I have no idea why Ms Balding felt it necessary to comment on him.
These two photos show a puppy in normal stance with a fairly level backline, and the same dog (I think) as an adult in a non exaggerated show stance.

[in the hills]

Doganjo - how is it the working fraternity that have done it? 

The split exists - we agree on that. Breeders have over the years tended to specialise either on working or showing. When you specialise it takes you in a certain direction and you are breeding for certain traits. Over time changes in terms of appearance and temperament occur and the breed can split. I think it's true that most working people at the top of their game wouldn't choose a show lab to cover their bitch. They would be going for a dog that was proven in the field and of proven lines. Is that not true of show people too. I can't believe that many top show people would be choosing a working dog to sire their pups.

I really don't think that you can say that the split is down to the working fraternity.

I will say that I am not against showing Doganjo. I was showing Flatties in the ring at Crufts when I was 13 and loved it. Just trying to look at things in a balanced way.

Don't think I am too wrong in saying that you won't see many if any show line labs competing in field trials. I think last time I looked into it there was only one lab in the UK to have won awards in open field trials and have won awards in breed classes at CH shows.

I am aware that some show people have some interest in working their dogs and there is I think the KC working dog certificate and events run to encourage this.

I have heard of Warringah and Fabracken kennels that are working their dogs but not sure that they compete in AV field trials. Did look at the site you mentioned but can't see that they actually work their dogs at the level of Open Field Trial. It seems to just mention working dog certificates.



Surely show people caused this as much as those working people?

[in the hills]

Doganjo - only 3 living dual purpose champions  . Doesn't really say a lot does it?

To be fair. Maybe there could be more. Maybe it's just that those 'showing' aren't as committed to working their dogs and those 'working' aren't really interested in showing. Who knows.

And maybe if they were interested in the show world more working labs could win places in the ring. There are some working line dogs that more closely resemble the breed standard.