[Kimbo]

Ok...I understand. Thanks for the pictorial update: it really does help.
Only thing is....... which one is Ace and which is Womble?   

[Kimbo]

to be serious for a moment.....
If Manx are a family tradition it would be an awful shame to lose that tradition, don't you think? Could Alice and maybe a ewe lamb from her not stay?
I know next-to-nothing about sheep but I do think that people with historical connections feel happier if they can keep them going if its at all possible. it wont make commercial sense but this is a smallholders' forum and if we took any notice of the bank manager most of us would pack it in

[marka]

Womble,

Re-home your existing ones and get some new ones - that way you can carry on the tradition but hopefully with a flock that is biddable.

Regards

Mark

[lesbri]

Lovely pictures, hard decisions to make. If it helps, I left a well grown ryland/hebridean ewe lamb in with my ewes last autumn with a zwartble tup and she lambed a lovely big single ewe lamb completely unaided 

[SallyintNorth]

I'm a little dubious about keeping only Alice.  IME, sheep tend to flock with their own kind, and if she's the only Manx remaining in a flock full of Zwarties I think she'll be miserable.  Could you keep a couple of the tamest lambs on with her?

Re: the Zwarties' feet, the two negatives I hear over and over again about the breed is feet and needing cake.  Might be worth trying mineral drenches or free access powder.  There's some complex biochemistry about zinc, magnesium (or was that manganese?) (and other things) and feet...

Which said, crossing a breed you really love but has terrible feet with a breed you also love but find a challenge, but which has good feet, just might produce some sheep that really suit you and your spot!  (And of course also some sheep that combine all the bad points of the two parents...)

Re: using Ace on Alice... when Zwarty lambs are born, how big are they?

[lesbri]

I dont think my lamb was over-big, just a good solid single, although incidentally she was born with her feet knuckled under needing splinting ?maybe due to being squashed inside mum?

[Buffy the eggs layer]

There are so many beautiful sheep breeds available and if you keep a breed for its looks you tend to be blind to its practical short comings. I love anything that makes my life easier which means I have always chosen my breeds of livestock that are calm and easy to handle.


I like to keep them fit and well and for me being able to handle them and care for them when they need it is a really important part of owning them. So my stray semi feral farm cats were tamed and tended until they became house cats that are wormed, flead, vaccinated and cared for. And my Dexter herd that were skittish were sold on.


The Ryelands that I chose ( other laid back breeds are available ) where picked solely for their confident, biddable and friendly natures. They have their downsides I suppose but I'm not aware of any as I love them so much. I agree that with some breeds winter feeding, lambing etc can make them more relaxed around you (it does with ryelands ) but I also think that some breeds are still very wild at heart and will only become more stressed and agitated in these situations.


I run my smallholding on my own most of the time as OH is out at work all day so I really do need my sheep to trust me and to develop a relationship where they happily go along with my requests and make routine tasks as easy as possible for the sake of their health and my safety. 




I would defiantly let them go to someone who appreciates them and focus on a breed that you enjoy. I also think that it is a waste to put a commercial tup on a Pure breed ewe.

[SallyintNorth]

I also think that it is a waste to put a commercial tup on a Pure breed ewe.

I'm going to express another viewpoint on that one.

If all keepers of rare breed sheep only ever put them to the same breed tup, there would be less of that breed around, not more.

The more that people can use the ewes of these breeds with other tups to create more commercial lambs, the more people there are that will be willing to buy the ewes and keep the breed. 

We all know we won't make money out of most of the rare breeds, but at least if we can produce some half-way decent fat lambs then we can cover our costs more nearly, enabling us to keep that breed at all.

Of course if all Manx (or Heb or Castlemilk or whatever) ewes all went to homes where they were never bred pure, then yes there'd be a problem.  But if more people kept a few 'funny little sheep' alongside some more commercial types, there'd be a bigger market for females of the rare breed, enabling those who can breed them pure to do so more often / in larger numbers.

And there's nothing at all wrong, in my view, in having some rare breed sheep and only breeding the better of the ewes pure, and not necessarily every year.  If that were a more accepted practise, and not frowned upon (or worse), there may be more people willing to keep a small flock of such breeds, and breed a few pure for replacements and a few for sale, the rest to a more commercial type tup for a fat lamb crop that will make a contribution to the running costs of the flock.

It's not a very popular viewpoint with most of the Breed Societies, I know - but there are some who think the same amongst the RBST field officers

[Buffy the eggs layer]

I think thats an interesting idea Sal but in this particular case I feel that it is a waste for same reason that Womble does. In the case of Zwartbles as the registered pure breeds cost more to buy then their offspring should therefore fetch a higher price as pure breed registered breedingstock ( with all the usual caveats about quality) but a cross breed which only has a meat value would not make the same return.

[SallyintNorth]

The male purebred lambs will only have meat value also.

And not all the girls will be good enough to breed from.

The Manx ewe will be a lot cheaper to run than a Zwartbles ewe.  And he wants to keep her.  It's not like she's stealing a space from a Zwartbles ewe.

[Womble]

YES!!  Finally managed to catch the rest of the lambs to worm them! 

Lots of interesting and helpful discussion - thanks folks!

To address the points in turn, yes it's a shame if we decide not to keep a rare breed, especially one that's been in the family for ages. Our hope had been that we might take on my Aunt's flock when she finally gives up, and given that there aren't any other keepers on Scotland (or so the breed society tell me), it did seem like a good move to have a wee population up here as a safeguard in case the worst happened down south.

However, I can only stretch that so far TBH, and since I wouldn't sell ours except to somebody who knew what they were taking on, mutton looks like the kindest (and tastiest) option.

in this particular case I feel that {cross breeding} is a waste for same reason that Womble does.

Actually I don't have any qualms about cross breeding.

I wouldn't cross breed the Z ewes, but that's because the pure bred lambs are a good size anyway, and good pure ewes will have value as breeding stock. Also, we couldn't source another Manx tup this year, so put the Manx ewes to a Shetland tup lamb with no regrets. Likewise next year I'll happily run Alice with Ace, provided nobody convinces me that that's physically a bad idea  (The Zwartbles lambs are born all legs and with narrow shoulders, so I do think it'll be ok).

Alice is not stealing space from a Z for another year or two, and if she gives us some good butcher's lambs in the meantime, as Sally says, she's earning her keep.

And not all the girls will be good enough to breed from.

That's a good point too, that I haven't really resolved wrt the Z's:  What do people do with perfectly good, but mis-marked Z ewes?  Do they have any value outside pedigree flocks, or are they best sent for meat?  Again, I have no qualms about eating them, but I do wonder if that's the only answer?

Good discussion folks - keep it coming! 

[SallyintNorth]

I know of a flock of Manxes near Castle Douglas - but they perhaps aren't registered.

Breed Societies get very sniffy about 'only helping the breed if they're registered' but, although I do understand where they are coming from, I don't wholly agree with them.  It's still that type of sheep, exactly the same sheep as they'd be if they were registered.  If a breed hit a real problem, the unregistered flocks would also be useful in saving / re-establishing the breed.  (Except in so far as the Breed Soc block the use of the wider gene pool because their ancestry isn't in their database .)  And in terms of why we should keep the rare breeds in the first place, this is met possibly even better by flocks that are there because they work in that situation

I could even argue a case that Breed Soc's sometimes are responsible for narrowing a gene pool - look at the situation where all registered Hebrideans have to be black.  How much genetic diversity has been lost?  (I got this example from Fleecewife's website, so she'll correct me if I've misunderstood.)

Anyway, this was to reassure you, Womble, that there are other Manxes in Scotland, whatever the Breed Soc tells you.

[Womble]

OK folks, time for an update methinks!

The "lay a trail of pellets and tie a long rope to the gate" trick stopped working eventually of course, and three of our four Manx ewes, plus their lambs became uncatchable via all means at our disposal. So, it was time to call in the heavies! 

We started off with three people and one collie, but after fifteen minutes had to go and get another one to help! 



So that's the lambs caught, checked and fluked, and three of our original four ewes securely penned awaiting their trip to the (ahem) seaside on Wednesday morning. Alice, our one friendly Manx nearly went the same way when we discovered she has foot-rot in one of her back hooves (can still run like  though!), but she got a reprieve by default as I'd dosed her with flukicide before I turned her over, and it has a 4 day withdrawal  .  So,if she's sound by tupping time, she can stay. If not, she won't be tupped, and will go for slaughter in the spring along with her lambs, and there will end our Manx Loaghtan experiment.



I'll send these girls on their way with a heavy heart. Maybe we let them down, but it's time to admit defeat - they just weren't the right sheep for us .

Still, I'm looking forward some beautifully tasty mutton in a week's time! 

[roddycm]

You've done the right thing I am sure. Very unlucky to have such wild Manx. Mine were always very tame, but I got them young and fed them treats initially. After that they would come up for scratches etc. I would not keep sheep I could not catch on my own, so again you're def doing the right thing! I am sure the mutton will be very delicious!

Let us know

[Marches Farmer]

I always keep back an old ewe I won't put to the tup again and let her run with the ewe lambs after they're split from the ram lambs.  She'll automatically become the head of the new little flock and, since she's a bucket trained Southdown, immediately respond to my call or the sight of a bucket and the youngsters learn from her. I also always put down a handful or so of feed when I call them, until they're thoroughly trained.