[mab]

I must admit I have wondered about the benefit of getting a dog as I currently use the bucket & funnel methods - my biggest issue isn't the time it takes, but when the sheep are in the big field I find the quickest solution is to funnel them into a small field then into the (smaller) yard, then into the barn/pen - which is fine except that unscheduled corraling makes a mockery of my parasite control plans if the small field is supposed to be kept sheep free for a few weeks.


just a week or so ago I watched (with quite a lot of envy) as my neighbour across the valley and his dog shooed their sheep  into a corner of a field and he went into the flock to do whatever whilst the dog turned back any sheep that tried to leave the corner.


The flip-side though as has been mentioned already is dog welfare - a couple of my neighbours up the road (who are 'proper' farmers and have sheepdogs) don't keep them as housepets but in a pen/kennel in the yard; the dogs seem to live in those pens alone all night and (it seems) all day whilst the farm is 'active' only to be let out after the working day is over (or when they're working the sheep, obviously). Clearly I'm not there enough to say for sure how much time their dogs spend penned up, but certainly when I've been their for a long day tractor driving for them, the dog has stayed in all day.


I do wonder if those of you who have working sheepdogs ever keep them as housepets and if not why not (If I got a sheepdog I wouldn't feel happy about keeping it shut in a pen alone as much as my neighbours seem to so would want to make a pet out of them).

[SallyintNorth]

Some farmers do let the collies in the house, most don't.

My two share a 2-bedroom apartment with spacious communal area (and are often together in one of the 'bedrooms' unless the owd fella is locked in his own so he doesn't steal Dottie's tea ) but are only out when needed or when I am doing something on the farm that they can join in, yes.

So they accompany me on my morning rounds, which may be 10 minutes or an hour, depending on the time of year and what's going on, then are penned up unless needed until I do my evening rounds, which are always at least an hour, often two.

Lambing is a busy time of year, so they are out and about much more, and shearing is Dottie's favourite time of year as she is top gatherer.  (Skip helps but it's usually too hot for him to be doing too much running.)

Our farm is on roads with fast traffic, so I don't risk them loose unless they are with me and I can keep an eye on them. 

BH's collie is on her own if we don't have a hound pup to walk, otherwise the hound pup stays with her in her 3-room apartment.  BH gives them plenty of exercise, and does let them wander about the farmstead in the evening when the roads are quieter. 

When I got Skip and Ted, Ted was delighted to be being upgraded to his own large apartment from the beer barrel that had been his bedroom (chained to it) in his previous home.  No way was he going to be house-trainable, so I didn't try.  I gave Skip the option, but although he loves to come in for 10 minutes fuss now and again, he can't cope with the heat indoors and prefers to be outside where he can fulfil his No2 duty as Main Guard Dog.  (Self-appointed, he's actually nowhere near as good at it as Mist.  )

Dot is the same; she had a lot of indoors time as a pup, getting socialised and playing, and also loves to come in for a visit sometimes, but as a working adult she finds it too hot and stuffy after 5 minutes or so. 

Their ideal would be kennels they can use at will and being allowed to roam the farmstead.  The roads make that a non-option, not to mention that too much free time and a collie's brain coupled with no boundaries would probably lead to Trouble with a Capital T.  (Which is why Skip was kept in an enclosed rear garden during the day, if I was in, at the moorland farm, and penned otherwise.  He could escape the garden if necessary, but had learned that unjustifiable roaming resulted in incarceration!)

Collies do need their own space, so even if they are indoor dogs they must have at the least a cage that is their very own, where they can retire from interaction and sleep and think.  Working collies need thinking time.

I have no strong views one way or the other about collies being indoors or not in a draughty farmhouse; in this part of the world, if they lived in a centrally-heated, insulated house, they'd become too soft to cope with the working conditions. 

The only time I find it a problem is when one of them has to stay overnight at the vet's.  They are very uncomfortable, panting and unable to settle - it's just way too hot for them.  I think the vet ought to have some collie kennels in the unheated stabling area!

[SallyintNorth]

To answer your implied question, mab, there's no reason at all you couldn't have a working dog that is also a house pet.  I'd give a different answer if it was expected to gather 500 Swales off as many acres of moorland in all weathers, but for most smallholdings, there's no reason the dog can't live in the house if it wants to.

It will need its own space, and preferably more than just a cage.   And to be allowed to be in its own space and not pestered to come and play, or worse, have children in its own place pestering it when it's trying to sleep or think.  I'd only get a collie from someone who keeps their collies indoors - I think if the dog comes from generations of outside-living collies, it may well not adapt to living in the house.

[Porterlauren]

To be fair they are not people, they are dogs.

I have one that lives in, but the rest barely tolerate it for an hour, too hot, too noisy, and too busy.

They are quite happy in their spacious outside kennel, where they have their own space, their own bed, are not hassled, and can moderate their own temperature.

Doesn't mean I don't love them all dearly!

[baffledog1]

If I can add my own experience of a working collie.

My Grandfather died leaving a two year old collie which he had trained. It had slept in an outhouse attached to the kitchen. On his death we tried to re-home to a suitable environment. At the time there were no takers and we didn't want to put him in the home for local strays..

It was either put to sleep or come with us. At the time we were in rented house waiting for the small-holding where we currently are, we had no option but to keep him inside for a few weeks. Luckily the collie settled, lots of walks and its own space under a worktop. House-training came naturally. have a sneaking suspicion that my Grandfather perhaps allowed him in more than he let on.

On arrival at the new house we gave it the choice of in or out. He choose in and although leaves the lounge in winter when the log fire is going full blast for his bed in the kitchen. He has limited work but lots of walks and occasionally we go and help a neighbour with his sheep.

To be fair I never thought he would settle. But seems to be having a great life with no obvious stress and makes us feel glad that we took the chance

[kelly58]

 Respect to you Baffledog for giving the dog a chance. No 2 Collies are the same. We have had collies all our life and each one had a different character, so you cant generalise. If you understand your dog you will get to know how it ' ticks' Its the same with any animal, including  Sheep ! 

[mowhaugh]

I agree with much of what has been said above, the inability to catch etc. your sheep certainly can be a welfare issue.  What I don't really care about, though, is how you do it, as long as 'no sheep are harmed in the making of...'.  We certainly couldn't deal with our hill cheviots, who are on up to 700 acres, without a team of good dogs, however our strategy for getting the shetlands in is to get a 3 year old with a handful of raisins to shout 'come here my sheeps', they scarper if approached by dog.

Border collies are funny things, and I do believe a collie with insufficient work/a handler with no experience/training could cause more of a welfare issue, to sheep or itself.

Our current collies all live outside, in large kennels with sleeping benches and an attached run, 2 pairs live together and one alone, although he can touch noses with the others through the run mesh.  They all go out together mostly, unless it is a day where we need to do more than one gather, then they are split into a 2 and a 3.

[plumseverywhere]

In previous years I have had no issues catching/treating/caring for my sheep.  As my last post was about a shetlandX that I've been unable to pin down this year, I'm assuming this might be sparked by my ineptitude 

I can see 2 factors that have made it harder this year -1) she survived a dog attack and has become quite terrified of anything that moves.   2) I'm currently under investigations to see if I have Multiple Sclerosis, my balance is shot and I have terrible fatigue
I posted my question because I was worried about the welfare of my ewe but the answers I received were very reassuring as she is roo-ing herself anyway and to be chasing her in the heat will not do her (or myself) any favours.
The small flock of 6 here are all bucket trained, 5 of them will stand to be sheared happily and any other treatment. There will come a time that my livestock have to go - for their health rather than mine if I become more ill but for the moment no animals have been harmed in my shenanigans and they are all really well looked after 

[mab]

thanks for the interesting replies on collies indoors/ outdoors - I hadn't ever considered the issue of a modern house being too warm - I haven't lived in a warm non-draughty house in a long time; I have a nice (if sometimes cold), quiet  kids-free home, so I suspect my house would be quite acceptable for kenneling an outdoor dog (TBH it has been suggested that that's all it's fit for    ). When I visit my sisters I find myself wilting in her sauna of a house so I know how an outdoor dog must feel.


I still would have to learn about what's involved in training a sheepdog before I consider at getting one though - I can train dogs generally, but have no real idea what's involved in sheepdog training.



I must admit my question was prompted by my (probably unfounded) suspicion that my neighbours dog(s) were kept outside as a bored collie could wreck the house; I don't doubt they are comfortable in their pens - its's the question of how long they're in there with nothing to do - and in the case of a lone dog, whether it wouldn't be happier in the house with human company. I don't really know how much time my neighbours dogs're kept in of course - it just wonder 'cos I seldom see them out.

[Me]

A massive amount of work in training a dug. Hundreds of hours with no sure outcome. Buy a Derek dvd. You do what he does - a lot.

Mine live outside in kennels, in a specially made block with company of their own kind.... they get out mainly to work, sometimes to play ball or just to wee and stretch their legs. They jump in the truck when I go out incase they are needed. I think their welfare beats most pet dogs I see who have human company 12-24 hours a day.   

[pharnorth]

I left my 9 Ryelands under the eye of a couple of friends, with an experienced shepherd on hand, while I went on holiday. Weather suddenly improved, sheep needed to move to make way for hay making. Completely inexperienced friends moved them no trouble.

Yes it could be a welfare issue, lots of things could be a welfare issue but there is often a whole chain of increasing key experienced people you can tap into.

[devonlady]

I would love to train a sheep dog or even work one but my inability to tell my left from my right without thinking about it makes for a very confused dog!!

[SallyintNorth]

I would love to train a sheep dog or even work one but my inability to tell my left from my right without thinking about it makes for a very confused dog!!

Not necessarily... can you tell which way the hands of a clock should move?  Because actually, it's not left and right, it's clockwise-round-the-sheep and anti-clockwise-round-the-sheep - and people who teach a 'Left' and 'Right' sometimes come a cropper!   

[SallyintNorth]

I would love to train a sheep dog or even work one but my inability to tell my left from my right without thinking about it makes for a very confused dog!!

Not necessarily... can you tell which way the hands of a clock should move?  Because actually, it's not left and right, it's clockwise-round-the-sheep and anti-clockwise-round-the-sheep - and people who teach a 'Left' and 'Right' sometimes come a cropper!   

Of which my favourite example was my own two rescue mutts, who used to love fetching sticks out of the river.  If they lost sight of the stick, they'd take 'Left' and 'Right' commands to be directed to it - which was pretty impressive and we did used to get an awestruck audience on occasion.

Until, that is, one day on a river near a friend's house, where we made complete fools of ourselves, the dogs going anywhere but where we directed them.  The audience still enjoyed the spectacle, but were not awestruck... 

Stupid us.      We thought the dogs had learned 'LeftLeftLeftLeft' and 'RightRightRightRight', but in fact they'd learned 'Downstream' and 'Upstream'!   

[Marches Farmer]

Our dogs come into the farmhouse at night, one in the old dairy the other in a large dog cage.  They never go elsewhere in the house.  Unless they're working they stay in the farmyard and each has a kennel but unless the weather is really bad they never go in them, just curl up at the bottom of a wall.  Our neighbour's dogs always follow the tractor up and down the field most of the time he's using it, so can travel many miles every day at haymaking, muckspreading and harvest time.  They have a great life but are clapped out by the age of 7, whereas my oldest dog is still going (slowly) at 11.