[harmony]

Sorry I didn't look back but I think you are quite correct about meat alternatives and generally teaching people about meals and less waste too.


I had remembered your celebrity chef point slightly incorrectly but as you say Hugh FW did a good job and you need someone who is a face people recognise on the telly.

[Marches Farmer]

A major change would be for people to reduce the amount of meat they eat - goes right against the interests of farmers, but we have to think in worldwide terms, not parochially.  None of those measures will happen overnight.[/size][/font][/color]
[

A study done on the National Trust's Wimpole Estate in Dorset showed soil under the estate's trees and hedges contained up to 11% organic matter, under grassland up to 6% and in some areas of arable less than 1%.  Differences were attributed to lack of ploughing.  The study concluded that with "the benefits of keeping livestock on pasture as a means of greenhouse gas mitigation implicit in these findings the accumulating evidence flies in the face of the much-touted argument that feeding the world on vegetable protein is the more responsible option".

[Eve]

What was classified as 'organic matter' in that study?

[Fleecewife]

Do you have a link to the Wimploe study MF?  Always best to go back to source. 


It's quite a wobbly conclusion to draw to say that the increased organic matter is due to the absence of ploughing. Without knowing how the experiments were conducted, what parameters were considered, we can't know if that is a reasonable conclusion to draw from the evidence.  I'm sure there are lots of factors at play here, for example that in woodland there is leaf litter which has lain there as long as the trees.  Similarly, grass land tends to have far more mole activity than arable fields, as they are not disturbed by ploughing, so can incorporate dead grasses and dung - yes so that supports keeping animals v prairie farming, but not whether organic methods of raising crops gives a different result.  I'm not saying we should all become vegetarian or vegan, just reduce the amount of meat, to increase our health, and reduce the need for such vast chicken production units, and allow outdoor rearing methods.
Organic crop production, with mixed farming, allows plenty of organic matter to be returned to the soil, so there should be a big difference in the organic matter between organic and chemical arable methods.  Is Wimpole run on organic lines, or conventionally?  I know they have lots of animals so there should be plenty of dung 


For the greenhouse gas output of housed versus outdoor livestock, I'm not aware of a major study on this point.  There are studies on housed cattle, where their gaseous outputs can be collected and measured.  I think it's very likely that the emissions of outdoor reared cattle will be captured by the grass and trees before heading skywards, but has anyone measured this?
Cattle kept indoors, or in feeding lots as in the US, are fed lots of grain, rather than grass, so their emissions may not be comparable. Has this comparison been researched?
There is apparently plenty of evidence that reducing the amount of meat we eat in the West will improve our health - don't ask me for any links though 
I truly believe in the motto 'moderation in everything', and this applies to what we eat too.  Nobody needs a one pound steak, or meat at every meal, so to encourage people to reduce their meat consumption to about 5 meals per week seems reasonable.  That would leave a bit of room for the animals we rear to eat to have a bit more space, and better living conditions.

[Black Sheep]

The latest figure (2015) for food banks is that 1.08 million 3-day food parcels were issued in that year.

This might be the top hit on Google but the 1 million is the number of parcels distributed by the Trussell Trust. They seem to represent perhaps about half of all food bank volume.

I'm sure there would have been far more if they could have been afforded. However, the £13bn/yr food wastage amounts to £13,000 for each food parcel. By reducing wastage by the order of 1% we could save the cost of all the food currently distributed this way.

I absolutely agree - food wastage is at ridiculous levels and is bordering on (is?) offensive given the level of food poverty we are seeing in society.

Are you seriously suggesting that the continuance of chicken production in its current form is justified

Not at all. I'm with you that we have a responsibility to look after animals (be they for food or otherwise) with appropriate care. I'm just suggesting that the solution is not as simple as expecting everyone to pay 25p more per egg - for some that is literally unaffordable and the alternative for them might be hungry children.

[pgkevet]

Climatologists only have a partial consensus on what/where so-called greenhosue gases come from and how much each contributes and I also don't see the simple findings of differing organic matter levels necessarily relevant. What would be more significant would be the protein production per land type as a ratio of that organic residue and persistence.
Having lots of organic matter under a hedgerow that is non-productive means little and that study doesn't say what level of methane or nitrous oxide and CO2 comes off from that hedgerow and it's soil and/or is captured. Equally as has been pointed out digestive gasses aren't included or indeed fertiliser additions.
As far as global causes.. well we all know that jungle clearance, warfare and natural disasters are huge contributors as indeed is 'globalisation' and all the additional transport of goods.

Its the narrow way folk look at figures.. say solar panels must be good... but no-one factors in their manufacture, the mining of materials and the environmental impact of their ultimate disposal. The most environmentally friendly cars are the gas-guzzlers in cuba.. purely cos they still exist rather than the environmental footprint that would have happened if the cubans had kept buying new cars - just in the manufacture of those new cars.

[Fleecewife]

All good points pgkevet.

[Marches Farmer]

The main vegan alternatives to cows' milk appear to be palm oil and soya derivatives.  Both crops are mostly the product of huge multinationals buying up small farms and smallholdings and clearing rainforest.  Maybe the Go Vegan World advert "Dairy takes babies from their mothers" should go on to say "Kill an orang utan, gorilla or jaguar instead"....?

[ColinS]

Not at all. I'm with you that we have a responsibility to look after animals (be they for food or otherwise) with appropriate care. I'm just suggesting that the solution is not as simple as expecting everyone to pay 25p more per egg - for some that is literally unaffordable and the alternative for them might be hungry children.

The primary driver of poverty in the UK is the cost of housing - trying to compensate for this to the tune of less than 13p/person/day (which in the face of current rents is infinitesimally small) by retaining our worst act of cruelty against any animal is perverse and achieves nothing.

Lest you think I'm being an extremist I'm simply suggesting we implement management of flocks to eliminate beak trimming - something which has been successfully eliminated in other countries (e.g. Sweden & Austria), was scheduled for a ban by DEFRA in 2011, was kicked down the road to 2016 and, surprise surprise, was kicked down the road again last year to heaven-knows when.

[ColinS]

Its the narrow way folk look at figures.. say solar panels must be good... but no-one factors in their manufacture, the mining of materials and the environmental impact of their ultimate disposal. The most environmentally friendly cars are the gas-guzzlers in cuba.. purely cos they still exist rather than the environmental footprint that would have happened if the cubans had kept buying new cars - just in the manufacture of those new cars.

Yes, unfortunately there have been a lot of things done because we have not kept a balance in climate science - for example the proliferation of the diesel car especially in Europe and the deaths from diesel particulates (the dangers of which were well established by the 1980s, long before the decisions were made).

We need to make renewables that actually work for the monetary and environmental investment we put into them  - it's going to be a long job. I'm proud to say I have had a very small input into the development of this beast which may possibly be one of the ways forward:-

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/kite-power-station-scotland-wind-turbine-plant-electricity-a7348576.html

[Fleecewife]

The main vegan alternatives to cows' milk appear to be palm oil and soya derivatives.  Both crops are mostly the product of huge multinationals buying up small farms and smallholdings and clearing rainforest.  Maybe the Go Vegan World advert "Dairy takes babies from their mothers" should go on to say "Kill an orang utan, gorilla or jaguar instead"....?

I really don't understand that advert.  Presumably it means dairy products, but how do they take babies away from their mothers?  Do they mean cows milk v breast fed?  Not everyone can breast feed, sadly. And how would soya milk be any different to cows milk in that respect?  Weird.  I don't think anyone in this discussion is advocating for the world to go vegan.
The damage done to rare environments, and as a result to some of our wonderful creatures is so totally unacceptable you wonder why the whole world isn't weeping. Maybe it is.   Have you seen how many products contain either soya or palm oil?  It can be really difficult to source food, and many other products, without finding one of those  hidden among the ingredients.  Then you have to think that Soya is in much livestock manufactured food.  So...that brings us full circle to grassfed animals. Necessarily, fewer animals can be produced using that system, so we either reduce our meat intake, or we crowd our livestock together, so our greedy population can have more, more more.  What's the answer?

[harmony]

Does it not refer to taking calves off dairy cows?

[Fleecewife]

Does it not refer to taking calves off dairy cows?

Could be, and they're using the word 'babies' to be more emotive.

[Marches Farmer]

Yup, I think they mean calves.  If you Google "images for soybean crop" or "palm oil trees plantation" or "almond orchards in USA" then contrast the images with what we see across the valley when we look at our neighbour's herd you can see why biodiversity is taking a nose dive in so many parts of the world.

[big soft moose]

Of course its debatable whether those soya monocultures are to feed vegans or to feed (mostly american) cattle

Coming back to the thread topic I see that there is now an outbreak in Alabama and Tennesee... how the hell did it get over there (as those areas are well off route for migrating wildfowl from china and russia) ? http://uk.businessinsider.com/3-cases-of-bird-flu-found-on-an-alabama-farm-2017-3?r=US&IR=T